To refer to a black man as a black man

[ShakeRattleNRoll]

The other day i was talking about this black man who lives down the road to a neighbour and she said it was politically incorrect of me to say 'you know that black man who lives there' after I had said it.I thought well i never.What's wrong with calling him a black man when he is a black man? How should have I described him? TYIA

I think the references to no one being black or white are a misconception really. Of course, none of us is literally those things.

'Black' tends to be a political/social rather than a literal description, and as such I don't feel it is disparaging or othering. It isn't my preferred description for myself (which is bi-racial) but I do understand the reasons why it is sometimes appropriate to use even for people like me.

I used to be in love with Felix Dexter & saw him perform so many times back when I was young & still had the energy to go to comedy clubs.

He used to do a great sketch about the geography teacher at school asking him to describe where he came from & he'd do some elaborate description and then say "of course, not everyone has the same view of Guildford".

Was just reminded of that by the girl from Kenya comment.

No Curlew

Obviously I wasn't clear.

First of all, I said I would be described as a 'mulatto' in some parts of the world. It was to give an idea of the diversity of my background and that I come from a social group that tends to experience this sort of 'othering'. I didn't say I am 'a mulatto' or describe myself as one.

AND NO, I WOULD PREFER IT IF MY DD WASN'T DESCRIBED BY THE COLOUR OF HER SKIN AT ALL. I WAS TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE HOW STUPID IT IS TO USE THE TERM 'BLACK' TO DESCRIBE ANYONE OF AFRICAN/CARIBBEAN HERITAGE. WHAT I WAS SAYING IS THAT EVEN THOUGH MANY PEOPLE WOULD REFER TO HER AS 'BLACK', IT ISN'T EVEN AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION. SO OBVIOUSLY IT DOES'NT MAKE SENSE ON THE MOST BASIC LEVEL TO USE THE TERM 'BLACK' TO DESCRIBE A WHOLE SECTION OF SOCIETY BECAUSE OF THE DARKER TONE OF THEIR SKIN. IT IS INACCURATE AS AN UMBRELLA TERM TO BEGIN WITH.

IT IS A UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED TERM BECAUSE OF COLONIALISM AND ITS USE BY COLONISERS TO 'OTHER' THE COLONISED GROUP AND DEHUMANISE THEM. NIGGER WAS A UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTABLE TERM NOT THAT LONG AGO.

The fact that you use the term 'people of colour' says a lot to me.

No Curlew

Obviously I wasn't clear.

First of all, I said I would be described as a 'mulatto' in some parts of the world. It was to give an idea of the diversity of my background and that I come from a social group that tends to experience this sort of 'othering'. I didn't say I am 'a mulatto' or describe myself as one.

AND NO, I WOULD PREFER IT IF MY DD WASN'T DESCRIBED BY THE COLOUR OF HER SKIN AT ALL. I WAS TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE HOW STUPID IT IS TO USE THE TERM 'BLACK' TO DESCRIBE ANYONE OF AFRICAN/CARIBBEAN HERITAGE. WHAT I WAS SAYING IS THAT EVEN THOUGH MANY PEOPLE WOULD REFER TO HER AS 'BLACK', IT ISN'T EVEN AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION. SO OBVIOUSLY IT DOES'NT MAKE SENSE ON THE MOST BASIC LEVEL TO USE THE TERM 'BLACK' TO DESCRIBE A WHOLE SECTION OF SOCIETY BECAUSE OF THE DARKER TONE OF THEIR SKIN. IT IS INACCURATE AS AN UMBRELLA TERM TO BEGIN WITH.

IT IS A UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED TERM BECAUSE OF COLONIALISM AND ITS USE BY COLONISERS TO 'OTHER' THE COLONISED GROUP AND DEHUMANISE THEM. NIGGER WAS A UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTABLE TERM NOT THAT LONG AGO.

The fact that you use the term 'people of colour' says a lot to me.

Curlew that was obviously an example in which the person describing the other individual would know a few details about them but not enough to perhaps know their name.

Bugsy obviously if someone were of African/Caribbean descent but from Guildford, it wouldn't be at all necessary to bother with a breakdown of their ancestry I'm from London, but my grandparents were not.

Using black as an umbrella term to describe people of African/Caribbean heritage is offensive to you

Think you should clarify that that is your personal opinion and not what many many other people who identify as black also think.

You always learn new things in talking to people, I can safely say that you are the first person I have ever heard say that they think calling people of african/caribbean heritage black is offensive.

Lots of people find the term 'Mulatto' offensive too.

You see, this is where I just crap my pants with the terror of getting it wrong.

My friends of both African & Caribbean heritage call themselves black and don't seem to have any issue with that and they call me white (when not calling me their honky). However, technically I'm not 100% white either, although I look white or pale skinned and am perfectly happy to be described as white, because describing myself as 12.5% coloured/brown/ethnic just seems nuts.

Interesting question there - at what point do you become white?

However, then poppingin1 comes along and I know that when my DS says to the girl at school, well of course you tan better because your dad is black, it will be to her DD & he is up for racism!

I never said that all African/Caribbean people found being called 'black' offensive. In fact I wrote "Because of the history of racial discrimination in this country and many others, calling someone a 'black man' is offensive to many who are educated enough to understand the connotations."

That is my opinion.

I know plenty of African/Caribbean people who are not offended by it and take pride in it. In fact I have had this discussion with people in my own family, and some are offended by it but some take the stance that it is about ownership. Much like with the term 'nigger', I have heard the argument that if a 'black' man takes pride and ownership of his 'blackness', then it is not offensive to be called a 'black man' because it is a valid and therefore non offensive description. I disagree with this. I think it contributes to this alienating and 'othering' that colonialism started.

Well, there is physical appearance. Which generally governs how people are treated by others and often but not always reflects people's actual background/heritage/ethnicity. So Bugsy, calling you white is reasonable, on that basis.

Then there is how people identify themselves. Which may or may not match what they look like. Barack Obama calls himself black, I call myself bi-racial, though ethnically we are both African-European. So calling you(rself) white is fine on that basis too. You self-identify (to use the jargon) as white.

If you know someone, you take your cues from them and call them what they call themselves, by and large. If I met a South African who described herself as coloured I'd use that (probably, in front of third parties, with a short explanation re Cape coloured) even though that's not a term I'd use for myself or want others to use about me.

But when speaking generally, I'd use the most commonly accepted term. So 'black' to describe people of black African descent and their diaspora. Asian in the UK meaning South Asian. Or mixed x and y background. I genuinely don't think it is such a minefield as some people suggest. The commonly used terms (e.g. in the media) are well-known. And if anyone with a minority view (like popping) were to accuse you of racism, you'd have the defence that actually you've used the consensus, accepted term with no intention to offend, so no you aren't.

I haven't read the whole thread but I get the gist.

I would say that it is all about intent. I think that culturally we have words we do not accept, that carry cultural negativity and obviously those are to be avoided because the connotation cannot be undone. However I think that if someone uses the 'wrong' word or phrase that the intent behind it is often obvious.

I think people read too much into things, which is, in a way, good because it prevents derogatory words from being a part of common culture but I think there is definitely room for descriptive words without being insulting (or being accused of being)

calling someone a 'black man' is offensive to many who are educated enough to understand the connotations

So those who don't find it offensive just aren't educated enough? or maybe they are but just see it differently than you do.

I get that it is your opinion but what you said about being educated enough sounds a bit patronising IMO.

I'd be happier if everybody thought like Popping, actually. There are no races in humans, but we do have different coloured skins. To me this is similar to differing hair colour, height, etc, and absolutely reasonable to use as a descriptor.

The business with Black having political meaning - while I understand the reasons for that, and the validity of the politics - causes no end of confusion & unintended offence.

My best friend from school and I met up as adults. She was talking about some work she's doing, and referred to herself as black. I was stunned! She was born in Jamaica, to a double-mixed couple, and has pale skin with some negroid features. While living in each other's pockets as teenagers, her 'race' never once occurred to me although the Jamaican culture she brought with her was very much a part of our lives. So mightily offended was she, on finding I hadn't classified her as black, that she stormed off after returning a few insults, and I never heard from her again :(

See, if we just said brown/dark/black/coffee/cream/caramel/white, or something else if skin colour wasn't an identifying feature, this sort of crap wouldn't happen.

What did you 'classify' her as out of interest?

And yes, I too find the term 'mulatto' offensive, I didn't ever say it was acceptable.

Bugsy I wouldn't accuse someone of racism for calling my DD 'black' because at the moment, as has been outlined, it is not considered offensive by everyone and is not consciously used to be offensive. I think most people are more rational than to chuck accusations around when the intent to be malicious is not there. What I would do is tell the person point blankly that I do not approve of my DD being described as 'black'.

I have formed my opinion based on the way African/Caribbean people have been treated for many generations. When people have been described as 'black' in the past, it has not been with positive connotations, and it has been to create this picture of a large homogeneous mass, thus denying a 'black man' his individuality. 'Black men' were the bad element of society and this idea was applied to all 'black men'. The term 'play the white man' is born of this. So being called a 'black man' was not just a way to describe someone's heritage. It was an insult because when many people would call someone a 'black man', it was (and still is) loaded with stereotyping and misrepresentation of character.

You see this in the news all the time. When a 'white man' commits a crime, he is rarely described as 'the white male' or 'Englishman' as an example. But when a crime is committed by a person of African/Caribbean heritage, the persons skin colour or heritage is more likely to be highlighted in the article. This is because being titled a 'black man' still means you are branded as having certain inherent characteristics.

To be clear, if this wasn't the case, I would have no problem with people being identified as a 'black man' or 'black woman'. But I feel the description is too loaded and has been used to demean and dehumanise.

Amber - nothing! No-one had mentioned her skin colour, I never thought anything about it. "Black" didn't describe her physically at all, except for her hair colour. (Which was brown, but she dyed it black.) I assume she had come to think of herself as black due to heritage & politics, but ... well, she wasn't. Though, clearly, she was 'black inside'.
Mind you, people have often (I do mean often) called me 'black inside', and I'm as anglo-saxon as they come! It's a term that causes more problems than it solves, imo.

Still waiting for this to post, have seen your last above, Popping. Agree with you again.

I'm just trying to imagine what you said after she said about her being black?

It was just something about I never thought of her as black. Not many people go round slotting the people they know into racial boxes, do they? I certainly hadn't.

"The fact that you use the term 'people of colour' says a lot to me."

Could you clarify?

I actually used "people of colour" because you are the first person I have ever come across who has said that describing people of Afro Caribbean origin as "black" is offensive. And I wasn't sure what word to use when talking to you. (I have used "black" without, as far as I know,causing offense for 40 years.) So I used the rather precious Americanism for want of another word.

Maybe not actively, but I can't imagine telling someone who said they were black that they weren't? which I expect is how she took what you said given her extreme reaction.

If she was very lightskinned [think you said she was?] maybe not being seen as 'black enough' had been an issue for her?

There evidently was an issue, Amber, because I lost a close friend.
It felt like - I dunno, something like reverse racism? She was offended that I hadn't classified her by 'race'. Since the matter never came up before, I had no reason to have even thought about it. Basically, it seemed she'd classified herself and now felt very strongly about it. I think she was unfair to write me off thanks to her self-labelling, but it is what it is.

She looks a bit like this. As I keep saying on threads like this (and always end up talking to you ), I wish we'd give up all this superficial boxing of people, and get on with being a pleasingly mixed bag.

I like talking to you garlic

I'm totally guessing here, but I think maybe she was offended not because you hadn't classified her by race, but that you appeared to be disputing her own self classification?

That women in the pic looks like a young version of a friends relative, she is St Lucian of mixed parentage. She identifies as black.

YY, Amber, I'm sure she was! But I couldn't have known she'd self-classified. Were I more diplomatic, I'd have instantly realised what had happened and gone along with it ... I guess this didn't compute for me, as it would have been too much of a mental re-write to pull off that quickly. It is a minefield, though! The other way round, I'd always assumed Michelle Keegan was of Indian/Easters/Asian descent, but apparently she's not. Although most Liverpudlians have mixed DNA. Good thing I didn't say anything, though, eh

I like talking to you, too, but I'd better not spend the whole evening waiting for Mumsnet to refresh ...

Yeah Mumsnet is well slow tonight. Think it is the penis beaker invaders.