to want my DCs to be the super popular, "alpha" children at school

[dirtyface]

partly inspired by the thread about do you buy your kids certain stuff so they can fit in (but not a thread about a thread i promise)

...it just got me thinking. i REALLY want my dcs to not just "fit in" (although i will be happy with that of course) but to be actively, super popular

they are only 4 (dd) and 7 (ds) at the moment so in year 1 and year 4 so just starting out really

but i think it starts young. tbh i can already see in DS's class who the in crowd are :o and luckily ds is friends with some of them but seems a bit on the periphery iyswim. popularity at junior school breeds confidence and a "popular reputation" and a casual expectation that people will like them which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy i think teachers tend to prefer the popular ones as well IME

it then IMO tends leads to success as an adult even if they dont do particularly well at school. for example, DH was very popular at school and although he left before even taking his GCSE's he has done very well at work, and always tends to be very popular where he has worked and ends up getting promoted a lot

so, those of you who have very popular DCs, whats their secret? and am a bit asking this, but is it / has it been anything you do as a mum / parent to help them along a bit?

You can take it with a pinch of salt, wordfactory, and not indulge it.

Oh don't over analyse .

Neither DD, nor I, nor her Dad care a jot if she's head girl. It's not a goal of hers! Far bigger fish to fry.

As for keeping schtum...well at some point you have to stick your head above the parapet and say 'this is what I'm going for' and I don't see it as humiliating at all if you don't get it.

Failure is part and parcel of being successful, no? You don't need to hide it.

OP tbh i can already see in DS's class who the in crowd are and luckily ds is friends with some of them

OP, children pick up this needy crap and it's precisely what drives the Alphas into being Alphas - it's nothing to do with being liked, everything to do with fearing exlusion from the top group - a fear that they pick up from their parents.

I used to tell my daughter "it's what you do that counts, not who you do it with".

She is a Gamma Delta kind of girl but she is very popular, mostly with the other Gamma Delta children.

You are being very stubborn, wordfactory. Think about it: wishing the best for your DC ought to include managing expectations and avoiding unnecessary humiliation.

haven't read the entire thread but worth stressing that the definition of an Alpha depends significantly on what type of school you go to. I went to a very academically challenging but horrible private girls secondary until sixth form where the Alphas were clever but sloaney and extremely bitchy.

I then decamped to a comprehensive where the Alphas were also bright but much more well-rounded, mature, tolerant people. There were also cliques and some bitchiness but there was a much broader sense of people's intrinsic value than there had been at the previous school.

I was lucky not to go to a very tough school but I imagine the concept of an Alpha there is a whole different ballgame altogether.

So the kind of Alpha turned out by my second secondary school would likely have been a much more grounded individual than the Alpha at the first (and in fact at least two of the Alphas at the first had had breakdowns by their mid-20s).

My general thesis is that being an Alpha is more trouble than its worth and the downsides (over-reliance on the group, bitchiness, inability to stand up for yourself) ultimately outweigh the popularity upside. But there are huge variations in what being an Alpha means.

Well if they came up with owt daft then, yes I'd tell them.

But if their goals/aspirations are high or unusual, I'd tell them to go for it. To give it their best shot and not worry about failure. What's the worst that can happen? A few mean spirited people enjoy your failure? Meh.

AnazingBouncingFerrett. I think we went to the same school.😃

The worst that can happen if you fail is an awful lot worse than that, wordfactory. Forgive me, but you are incredibly naive on this issue.

Bonsoir, I'm not quite understanding your argument here...

Suppose a sixth former did put her name down to be voted (or not voted) headgirl, say. How and in what specific ways would you prepare her for failure/manage her expectations or whatever?

Are you saying that a sort of 'yeah, go for it: as long as you're not going to be terribly cut-up if someone else gets it, fine, good luck!' is naive, or not enough preparation? And what are the consequences you're thinking of that are 'an awful lot worse' than anyone else is imagining?

Your example isn't the one on the thread.

All I am saying is that it is best not to count your chickens before they are hatched, especially not in public! It puts a lot of unnecessary pressure on DC at a vulnerable stage of their lives where much hinges on small turns of events iced which they have little control.

I thought you were just talking about headgirls? That was the example you gave, wasn't it?

Yes, I agree that counting unhatched chicks is never a sensible idea. But telling your hen to go ahead and try for a few chicks if she feels like it seems perfectly reasonable to me!

I suppose you could say my dd is one of the ones that failed.

In the sense that she was predicted very high grades, the head girl thing was mentioned, seemed to do well socially, the assumption was that she would do very well all round. Instead she went to pieces, had a breakdown, missed the best part of the last two years and has just scraped enough GCSE grades to get into college (though that was touch and go).

The same thing has happened to a couple of other high achievers in her year: one developed an eating disorder and the other started self-harming.

These things happen; not sure if an attitude of "meh" is particularly helpful. But picking yourself up and starting again is. Thankfully, they have all survived to do just that (those tablets were not as strong as dd thought). And they are not bitter or angry or overly envious of other people.

Not sure what I'm trying to say here. Except that life is a fragile thing. But that a gentle open attitude towards other people is always helpful, even when the worst happens.

Even if dd had died that time- which I suppose is the ultimate failure - her life would have felt more worth while because she was basically a decent person. And certainly it helps to make the future seem more promising.

Sadly DC we know with charmed early lives have gone off the rails completely when they fail to live up to early over-optimistic expectations of brilliance. We have very good friends whose three highly talented DC were hospitalized with psychiatric disorders related to failed expectation in the same school year. It is sadly becoming a much more commonplace cause of teenage (and beyond) breakdown.

Then again, Bonsoir, they may find inner resources which enable them to pick themselves up and start again. Life isn't over until you are dead.

I didn't give an example - it was wordfactory's anecdote.

No, but spectacular failures tend to leave painful and indelible scars.

I am sure they do, Bonsoir. I am sure they will . Life is a fragile thing. But we do our best. And there are also MNers who carry the scars of having parents who never expected anything of them.

(btw not trying to argue my own case here: I am well convinced that dd has suffered from her own expectations, not mine, and her CAHMS therapist says the same)

I found that the two most Alpha girls in dd's class were those with big sisters - but they were nasty and divisive, obsessed with each other and created an unhealthy jealousy around them. Their mothers were equally exclusive, being quite aloof.

Over the years the class of 13 girls divided as the handful of girls bickering for favour of the top two dwindled and all the others went off and found each other. They found out what true friendship was.

I do wish schools would work on social relationships, they are looking after vulnerable people and should protect them and help them reach their full potential. Allowing children to exclude others can be hugely damaging and I would describe it a form of abuse. It takes years for girls to work through all this stuff sometimes - life's too short.

And again, there are different types of popular. I have 2 friends who have very popular sons. Both boys are unassuming, pleasant, chatty, kind, witty. They have different strengths but are liked by other parents, teachers, sports coaches and their peers.

I have daughters, they went right through the same primary and secondary schools so I've known some of their peers since they were four. Some little girls can be mean at four and will pick and choose who they will be friends with and who is not allowed to join in. Ive read posts on here from mums worried about their little girls being left out. It tends to get worse in year seven when those girls fight for top position in big school. The pattern is then set for the next 5 or 7 years. Those girls believe they are popular and everyone wants to be in their gang. I wonder if they have any idea that they are actually very unpopular and everyone else is happy to avoid them?

If your children are genuinely popular with other parents then I think you have done a good job. I'm sure we have all had children to tea over the years that we would happily never see or hear about again, despite their apparent greatness.

People keep saying that the 'alpha' children ended up eccentric as adults as there is one thing wrong with it! Probably they are quite happy to be eccentric. They are generally successful and leaders because they are comfortable in their own skin. You can't make your child an 'alpha' child- because you end up making them a follower or a people pleaser. I have a friend whose daughter was always on the fringes of the 'in' group but life was difficult for her - e.g. she couldn't choose a school skirt without knowing what others were going to wear. The true 'alpha' child sets the trend - they have no need to know what others are wearing.
True 'alpha' children are friendly, outgoing, not easily led, good all rounders, and liked by all, adults included. I wouldn't call a bullying clique 'alpha'.
The best thing to do is build up your child's confidence and encourage them to be friendly to all and generally cheerful.
The only times you need to help them fit in is if they are utterly clueless themselves. Encouraging friendships is helpful to all.
I hate the term 'alpha' I am just using it for want of a better one.

Different DC react to parental ( or other) pressures quite differently to one another and it is often only after a certain amount of trial and error that you work out your own DCs' modus operandi. My DSS1 is capable of fabulous things (as his recent bac results and university entrance have demonstrated) provided he receives masses of parental, private support. My DSS2 only really responds to peer pressure so needs to be in a very demanding peer group in order to max out. Different animals.

I always think that phrase of show me the 7 year old or give me the 7 year old and I will show you the man is so incredibly stupid.

people mould, change, get less/more confident, sink and swim throughout life.

they can become ill/ disabled but still achieve/ be happy.

your peak can be 13 or 44 or 63 and you can peak and trough.
happiness doesn't equate with GCSEs and school is just the springboard.
it's not set in stone.

its not over until you are dead.