to hate it when women suggest their menflok are like an extra child?

[ChaosTrulyReigns]

If he doesn't step up to the plate, get them to improve and stop enabling the behaviuor.

It's not rocket surgery.

"That doesnt actually answer the question at all.

So I am sort of assuming that you are in a Mrs
Bucket type household."

Sorry- I must have misunderstood the question if my answer led you to assume that! Could you ask the question again?

I am not sure how to word the question differently.

I will ask it slightly differently.

Does your partner or husband do everything that you expect him to do?

"Does your partner or husband do everything that you expect him to do?"

This seems to suggest that I'm somehow in charge- I'm not. We operate as a collective-we don't have a leader! Things get done. Nobody is overburdened or freeloads.

Where did the Mrs Bucket thing come from?

That is great that you and some others have a marriage like that.
In our household, fwiw, my husband definitely works harder than I do - his choice. But I do do more of the housework than him.

Mrs Bucket - goggle Hyacinth Bucket.
TV programme.
Bossy[ish] wife, husband, for some unknown reason to me, does virtualy everything she asks or shouts or cajoles him to do.

I know a few marriages like this.
Wife is a strong woman in many ways.

I always used to think that the men would therefore be strong as well.
How wrong I was.
Husbands are normally like Mr Bucket.

Result. Wife very happy.
Man, sometimes yes, and sometimes, man definitely not.

Not the sort of marriage I would want.But up to the couple involved.

I know who Hyacinth Bucket is. Are you suggesting that men can only contribute to the running of a household if they are nagged or cajoled into it?

No.

So what are you saying?

We seem to have a communication problem.

I think I may leave it now.
I am happy that what I have said is probably explanatory enough for what I want to say.

Suppose I might sort of retry.

If you, curlew, didnt have a man that was willing to operate as a collective, what would you do about it?

If H is shit at stuff, it's not my job to make him less shit. I'll just plod on dealing with MY stuff and if he has no clean pants for work on Monday, boo hoo for him. If he's fannies around and gets in my way, I reserve the right to moan about him here and call him names, including likening him to one of my children. So there.

Also, he just doesn't do things MY way and that infuriates me as much as if he did a poor job of whatever task he's attempted. FGS why would anyone arrange the cutlery spoon - fork - knife ???

The thing is your dealing with gender stereotypes. When a boy is born he gets car toys, trucks and computers while a girl will get dolls and doll houses.

So if you start at that basic point and then ad in years of marketing, "traditional values" and the new trend for tv commercials that advertise soap or cleaning products to show men as stupid children it's not hard to see a link.

The funny thing is whilst marketing men keep telling women that men are silly and don't know how to work a washing machine, it's most likely the marketing man is a man and the guy who designed the washing machine is..... well a man!

It's a weird, modern brand of feminism mostly created because women do control most of the household budget these days. That's why you see betting adverts only during the football and adverts for DFS, a new car, washing machines and cleaning products during Loose Women. The one area of the world women control is the home, same as it ever was, as if feminism never really happened.

Unfortunately lots of women fall hook line and sinker for this ploy. They believe they are the smart ones, when actually they work twice as hard, get twice as stressed and still earn less than a man.

You couldn't make it up... :(

I just don't get this at all.

If anyone believes that a grown functioning adult can't / won't / is unable to do stuff for any other reason than it suits them then they are kidding themselves.

"I try leaving them to do it, but its a mess / they don't / it makes it worse / I have even more work to do", is farcical. if it suited them to do it then they bloody well would, but the fact is it doesn't, so they don't.

Its amazing how many 'incapable' people suddenly find all of their abilities in tact when they no longer have someone to do it for them.

And actually yes, I split the blame both ways. Its the fault of the person who can't be arsed to act like a grown adult and the fault of the person who finds reasons to let them get away with it.

I'd rather not be 'needed' than find succour in mothering a childish adult. It diminishes both parties.

"If you, curlew, didnt have a man that was willing to operate as a collective, what would you do about it?"

I don't know. I can't imagine circumstances where I would form a relationship with a man who didn't.

Snort at whowhatwherewhen

Gosh it's a bit tragic that some people can only conceive of a relationship where both partners do what's needed as the result of a man being happy to be bossed about!

Yes I am married yellowballons but I am as bemused by your questions to curlew as she is!

What is it that you are getting at exactly?

That would be yellowballoons!

Spoon - fork - knife?!?!?' No no no. LTB! That's mental torture right there!

You and curlew and chaos are saying "just stop letting the men get away with it", but none of you are saying how. Apart from curlew who says that she wouldnt have got together with the man in the first place, which doesnt help the people in the situation.

So what should they do now?

littlemog, does your husband do all his chores willingly?

TheOriginalSteamingNit. There are plenty of men who do not do their share of jobs willingly. Probably the majority.

It's a fair point that some women don't realise just how selfish and lazy a man is until the DCs come along, by which time the commitments are bigger. But all of the women I've known in that position agree there were massive clues...trouble is the workload massively increases with kids and the effort from men like this decreases in inverse proportion.

How to tackle it? Like I said yesterday, I'd take it away from the arena of housework which trivialises it and call it what it is: selfishness, laziness, disrespect and a lack of love. Horrendously sexually unappealing too.

It's too easy for these types of men to dismiss complaints about housework or childcare because at heart they are chauvinists who label such complaints as 'nagging' and in truth,they regard all this as female work. So it's like white noise to them. There might be the odd promise of changed behaviour, but those are easy words that often don't translate into hard actions.

Not so easy to dismiss your wife telling you your selfishness has diminished your sexual appeal and that she interprets your behaviour as neglect, disrespect and not loving her as much as she deserves.

That's if you give a shit that your wife doesn't fancy you, finds it hard to respect you and thinks you don't love her, of course. I expect the most selfish ones just assume that she'll stay where her bread's buttered and that she'd never have the courage to leave.

Yellowballoons- I thinks eh problem is that behind phrases like "his chores", is the mindset that men are doing chores for women. Not that they are doing a share of what needs to be done to keep the household running smoothly. Does my Dp always fall on the washing basket with glad cries? No. Do I sing "Hello, Hoover, my old Friend"? No. Do my children skip out to the recycling bin? No. The difference is that we might resent the need to do the task, but we don't somehow think that we are being forced to do it by another person (aka female partner/woman) and that it wouldn't be necessary to do the job if that person wasn't telling them to do it. The need/wish for a reasonably pleasant home is the driver, not the demands of another person.

*littlemog, does your husband do all his chores willingly?

I find this a pretty bizarre question on quite a few levels. Maybe if we lived in a household where we had assigned 'chores' this would make more sense to me but to be honest we both just do what needs doing as and when.

Not sure anyone is delighted about doing housework - I don't really enjoy it - but because we don't want to live in a tip, we do it.

So we don't have 'his and her chores' and to ask if my husband 'does his chores willingly' makes him sound like a child - ironic really in the light of the whole thread!

Bugger that bolding!

I'm in total agreement with littlemog and curlew . They make perfect sense to me and I'm also confused by the tone of the questions asked to them.

Marriage is a partnership. And you generally get to know your partner before you marry. And there no way in hell I would ever marry someone who didn't work in a team with me.

The housework is no more his or my job. We both pitch in to get it done. There's never any need to even discuss it... if he sees the floors need mopped, he does it. Same with me. The only thing I always ensure I do is to thank him for his effort... which he also does to me. A quick "thanks for doing the dishes" etc acknowledges the effort we have contributed to the household and ensures appreciated and neither of us are taken for granted.

yellowballoons if I was with a man who had so little respect for me that he thought it was appropriate for me to be his servant I would leave.

Yes yes, I know it isn't that simple.

But really if DH thought of me like that I would not love him.

We need money, we need kids looked after, we need house and clothes tidy and clean etc. We distribute the load between us so we both get maximum fun time.

It isn't a complicated idea.

Like today, all up at 6am - DH makes breakfast and lunches and coffees, DH emptied the washing machine and DS1 emptied the dishwasher. I leave for work and DH drops the kids off on his way. After my work I collect the kids, come home supervise homework, talk to the toddler about his day, and cook dinner (whilst cleaning down the kitchen from morning stuff). DH is still at work. Kids are now having fun time playing. DH will be home soon and will eat his dinner chatting to the kids, when he has finished his dinner DH will do bath/bedtime for the boys. While he is doing this I will reload the dishwasher and washing machine and clean down the kitchen. If bedtime takes long enough I will put the clothes away from the morning load. House is clean, kids are happy and we stop work at the same time, lets say 8:30pm.

Tag team. It is faster, more efficient and no-one feels taken advantage of.