To state that suicide is NOT a selfish act ?

[Coffeenowplease]

Really riled by this. People who commit suicide are ill and by the nature of their illness cannot think rationally so therefore cannot be "selfish" and think of the damage it causes to others.

I am so angry by this I had to make a post just to get it out.

Feel free to discuss.

Looking Thank you, and good luck in your continued fight. Things are OK here at the moment, but it is the back of my mind whenever we (he) hits a rocky patch.

NewAtThis the best word I can use for describing the feeling is detached. Utterly detached on an emotional level from everyone around me. My logic was so twisted, because I had no emotional attachment left to guide it, that I was going all sorts of strange places; the obvious one that I was harmful to my children. I literally couldn't relate to them on a level where they needed me. It's hard to explain.

I swear, one of the thoughts that kept me alive was; if I kill myself, I will not be allowed a Catholic funeral, and my son will not understand that.

Now, today, though I'm still ill, I have enough emotional attachment to him to think 'what the hell was I thinking? Like any part of this would be understandable to him?' When I was detached from him, the only part of it I could think was about the Catholic funeral thing. That was one of the tiny cotton threads that was keeping me alive. That and not having enough cash in the house to pay for breakfast club if I used the money for other things. So thin, so tenuous, but I was detached from every other aspect of every other person.

I guess I am going from my own experience, but I can understand fully what you are saying, as that detachment was absolutely how I felt during the worst of my 'acute anxiety' as it was labelled.

But the pre-cursor, the reason I got ill was a series of emotionally traumatic events that I failed to deal with. I was emotionally overloaded, and I think that kind of thing can push you towards switching off till you get to a point where you can start to deal with it again.

I'm fortunate though, in that I know my mental ill health had a trigger, its not, for example, something like bipolar that can come and go with no known reason.

Looking, am with you. Currently ok but have had the conversation with DH and in April had to get myself to medics ASAP, with DH on watch overnight, as knew what I would do otherwise.

Again, to those who have not been on the cliffs of fall, you are enveloped in a searing detachment, where you are completely clear that you cannot continue and also that in the longer run it will be better for everyone as they can then get on with their lives and not have to support you on the roller coaster.

Children are the strongest protective factor. I am v clear that when Ds moves out I shall no longer have that factor.

And sausage, ditto what looking says.

(( Hugs) looking
I am not sure if this will be of any help/comfort to you at all.
I was where you are now in 2008. Things have improved.
It started with me wanting want to live
When I felt no hope my therapist told me would hold the hope for me.

Over time there has been an improvement. I am not going to pretend that all is well. nor that I have no further issues, they will always be with me.
But the pain, the fight, has passed by and I do feel times of complete peace.

I wish that for you. You are an amazing woman.

I have to say YABU. I have thought of suicide in the past. but since becoming a mum I wouldn't consider it. if I killed myself my ds would have a much worse life because of that. And that would make me selfish.

sausage, I wasn't having a go I hope you don't think that - I just wanted you to know where I was coming from, I feel very strongly that mental illness is dismissed and it shouldn't be. Yet I have not suffered from either perspective and in some ways struggle to understand the illness myself as I have limited first hand experience.

my dd lost a coach to suicide and at the time she went missing and was found - yet still wasn't given the help and assistance by medics needed to help prevent her from then going missing again and ending her life

For those who feel an act can be given a moral value, regardless of context, then it's clear that suicide is always a 'selfish' thing - because it always causes pain, or at least work, for others.

Those arguing against suicide being 'selfish' seem to view the moral meaning of an act as being inextricably connected to its context - which in this instance, would be the thought processes of the suicidal person. In this context, since the overwhelming majority of people who commit suicide are mentally ill, the question is really less about suicide and more about how mental illness can compromise thought processes - that is, whether mentally ill people can be held responsible for their own actions. If it's thought that mental illness does not hamper conscience - nor the ability to act/not act at will - then of course it will be assumed that anyone who considers suicide as an option has a moral deficiency and is probably selfish. If that is you, then all I can say is this: you clearly have never spent a year in a high security mental health unit.

Most of us get through life with absolutely no idea what it is like to have a debilitating mental illness. A naive denial goes on. People who believe in moral absolutes get anxious about a world in which we're not always responsible for our actions. Others cannot imagine a fractured identity or ability to think, in the same way that it's difficult to imagine not being here before or after our time of being alive. It's also difficult to imagine a world where emotional pain is experienced in a different way - intense, prolonged emotional pain is something most of us can move on from, if we ever experience it to begin with. How frightening to think of other possibilities. And our society doesn't encourage seriously mentally ill people to walk about the streets sharing their experiences.

In my opinion the most dangerously misinformed people on this issue are those who have experienced a degree of mental illness, considered suicide and decided against it on moral grounds. Without diminishing the heroism of that decision, it doesn't follow that not being able to make that choice would have meant you were a selfish person. It may just as easily have meant that you were more unwell.

One other point - debilitating mental illness can be searingly painful. Getting through a night can use up all available reserves of energy and fortitude, leaving nothing for the following night, or the night after that. Even if it was down to a simple moral judgement involving courage or selfishness, we should remember that resilience is not handed out equally at birth.

Suicidal thinking is often logical thinking that has become distorted by emotional agony. Rather than judging someone for not making it to the finish line, I wish we could recognise how much love it may have taken to be present at all.

looking your post really was amazing - i was sitting on the sea wall reading that and i felt the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. You described something that I have felt, maybe not to the extreme you have felt it but it struck a chord wiht me. The fear that maybe one day i'll just walk out of my house, walk to the railway track and wait for the train (there have been several suicides just down the road from me and it plays on my mind) that i wont actually want to do it, but i wont be able to stop myself. Thankfully i am not in that place just now but your post did ring so true to me.

You write beautifully and with such insight - i can only wish you the very best and pray that you find some inner peace in THIS world.

I know this will probably sound trite but your children are lucky to have you, you are so eloquent and have such empathy - i would feel privaliged just to know you.

When I tried to commit suicide I was very selfish in that I didn't think of anyone else, but I can't see it as a selfish act as I wasn't thinking straight. For me it wasn't that I didn't want to be there, but the push was that I needed to do something! My thoughts were not rational and I can now see how close I was to a total breakdown. My mind was a spin cycle and nothing could change it. I had to do something and it had to be now. So I swallowed every pill in my house and felt instantly relieved as I'd done something, I'd made a change. No thought for me or my family, just that I'd done something that could matter that could change the life I hated.

I just had to do something. That's all I can say.

I don't view suicide as a selfish act. But as desperation to do something when you feel utterly hopeless, to matter, to have some semblance of control.

I don't know if what I'm saying can ever make sense to someone who hasn't been there. So I'll probably stop rambling now.

I'm so glad I'm alive but it took me going to the brink to realise it. I'm so glad I was found in time.

This thread has hit me really hard today and I have agonized over whether or not to contribute. I'm not convinced I have anything to add to what is a very moving debate but as I am repeatedly drawn back here, I would like to share my experience.

I was told as a teenager over and over that I could do whatever I wanted, the world was my oyster. I was talented, successful, happy and loved. The reality of my world as an adult is one of sadness, pain and sometimes unbearable torture. The ugly face of a serious mental illness took hold of me and hasn't loosened it's menacing grip since. Before my first episode of mania/depression I had no comprehension of how devastating this illness can be. It consumes me most days and even when I am 'well' I long to no longer exist. I am blessed with too beautiful babies but not even their unconditional love for me protects me from my own self loathing. I have experienced terrifying psychosis where I was convinced that on a certain date in 2012 that either I sacrificed myself or my family would be killed. Although sectioned in hospital, I managed a fairly serious attempt on my life. I survived. This is just one of many attempts I have made. I think very little of myself and am hugely ashamed of my actions when unwell but find it difficult to accept they were selfish.
Something else takes over entirely and the me I know is lost.

Fortunately I have a loving family who support me to live a life that is as full as is possible and don't see me as selfish despite the hell I have put them through. As a mother myself now I can begin to imagine how my poor mum must have felt. If I will take one thing from this thread it is to appreciate them more.

I have met many beautiful people in hospital desperate to escape a painful existence. As an outsider, I want them to be able to see that things can change and life can be different. On the inside however I know that kind of hope is beyond reach. People facing that kind of mental anguish need gentle support and understanding. I'm not sure the 'suicide is always selfish' position helps anybody.

I don't know what to say to martha and others who've shared your experiences - except I'm glad if you can take something positive from this thread, and sorry when people's lived experience is so hard.

In response to an earlier point about it being hard to read people arguing over the semantics of the word "selfish" - I think there's a lot of experience behind what might look like semantics but is really based on some pretty tough life events.

Definitions of selfish seem to be in two parts

Part1
"lacking consideration for others"

If a person is not thinking straight, as they are not a lot of times, is that lacking consideration for others? No
If a person is in a lot of physical pain and wants it all to end, is that lacking consideration for others? No, unless perhaps they were always a selfish person and never considered others.

Part2
"chiefly concerned with one's own personal profit or pleasure"
If a person is not thinking straight, are they the above? No
If a person is in a lot of physical pain, is it the above? No.

Again, talking entirely selfishly about me (heh), my biggest fear at the moment is the return.

I've had three big breakdowns in the past; one in 1999, one in 2009, and one this year (though realistically, I feel I should have seen this coming last year when I'd gone through a couple of very bad spells which had sapped the strength from me.)

So on one level, I have hope in that I've been desperately ill before, and I've got better. In between times, I've been the fun, confident, capable person I used to be. I've enjoyed my life. It's therefore not beyond the realms of possibility that I'll get there again (though it's hard to believe this right now).

On another level, I have fear that it will never go away. It's come back three times, so I have reason to dread times four and five.

Each one of my breakdowns has been entirely different in how it's felt and what my symptoms were, which makes it hard to identify what's happening each time. I'm chasing it around, wondering, what next?

Even so, I consider myself lucky for a number of reasons. The first is that I first got ill (or was diagnosed) when I was very young. Just 21. My mum's a mental health nurse, and though she didn't spot it instantly, she did spot it. I went to the doctor and begged them to find something wrong with me that would explain my symptoms that didn't make me like my mum's patients, and the doctor then (I'll never forget her), calmly and kindly took pints of blood to look for everything on the condition that if they found nothing, I would consider the possibility of antidepressants. Obviously they didn't find something else with a miracle cure.

After that, I spent a lot of time reading around it, getting medication, and in therapy. I've got myself now to the go-to 'there's something wrong with my brain' for when things go wrong.

If you think of someone who hasn't had that advantage, and who's spent their early adult life fine, and believing mentally ill people are criminal or all hear voices or are weak-willed and so forth, and then they're hit by symptoms all at once, then they don't have the advantage of the go-to thought 'I want to die; that is a symptom of an illness that I have, I should get help with that...' then they can't see that their logic is twisted, or that they're detached or whatever you want to describe it. The important thing to remember is that when you're in the midst of it, the illogical, strange, twisted thoughts make perfect sense. Even now, with all the reading and so forth behind me, I can still come out with 'I literally could not choose which beans to buy. I was frozen in panic in case my beans killed my family; that's not right, is it?' I know it's a symptom today, when I'm stable. When I'm looking at the stack of baked beans, that feeling of panic is the only feeling in the world. I will make a mistake here, and people will die. That, in my brain, is the reality.

I think when you are completely full up with pain it is totally beyond your capabilities to further consider the pain of other people too , you look forward to Suicide with a sense of relief and imagine your closest feeling a relief of pain too that they associate with you .

That's my take anyway .

I keep coming back to this thread ...
I relate to a lot of what you have said Looking .
I didn't realise how I was thinking was due to mental illness - I knew I was in despair but felt guilty about it. I know if I wasn't physically ill too, have to see that GP and didn't drop my guard for that second it would have been a shock to everyone around me.

I learned something from your first post - the 'I should be dead' - I always assumed that was because I did actually nearly die - not a symptom of the depression - It was perfectly rational and logical to me to think 'I should be dead - if it wasn't for medical science I would be. I actually don't deserve to still be alive.'

I think even with mental illness we all have different personalities. I am a ditherer - I find it really really hard to make decisions. It is not a good quality. But then if I had been more decisive or impulsive I probably wouldn't still be here.

I HAVE to believe it would be selfish for ME - I can't let myself think any other way . Otherwise in the past, and possibly in the future, the battle to stop myself would be so much harder. What would be left to stop me? ...and that frankly scares me.

Sometimes suicide can be a very selfless thing to do. If you are very old or very ill and need a lot of care you might feel you were helping your family by ending our life. Of course they would be very unhappy at that but over a period of time your illness could lead them to despair too, so it would be a bit of a balancing act.

Peoples perception of their value changes when they become ill sometimes. My own father died of lung cancer at 63. Years earlier a friend of his shot himself when he was diagnosed with cancer ( at a time when there was no real prospect of a cure or remission) My father considered him to be a very brave selfless person and indeed something of a hero and always said he would do the same in that situation. Of course he didn't, he hoped against hope for remission or cure, minimised his difficulties, got on with distraction tasks such as his VAT return and soldiered on in near denial until his last few days. He was at least as brave as his friend. For me, if I developed dementia I would consider it, some conditions rob you of the essence of yourself and you are gone which ever choice you make.

My BIL committed suicide almost 4 months ago. He had no MH issues at all (well, not that we knew about) and it was a total shock.

He had a bad stomach bug and convinced himself he was dying......I personally think he had a breakdown as I can't believe it was planned anymore than an hour or so before. He was the least selfish person I have ever known - for him it was the only choice at that time.

Oh, such heartbreak on this thread. I'm moved daily by the posts from those of you who suffer with mental illness, and wish you all enough of the right conditions to achieve peace while able to appreciate it.

Returning to the many debates about whether mental illness absolves a sufferer from 'selfishness' ... Why does this have to be about illness and morals? People have to make unpopular decisions all the time. The world's full of families who feel a member was selfish to move abroad, for example, but the choice is usually made for perfectly sane reasons. I'm inclined to call their families selfish, as they wish to control one another for their own convenience. What about people who pursue dangerous sports, like underwater caving or mountaineering? Are they selfish? They are sane! Sane people drive motorbikes, despite knowing the astronomical odds of a serious accident - are they to be condemned?

I'm afraid I still think those who call suicides selfish, are the selfish ones. We may need to justify the act by diagnosing mental illness, but imo it's callous to put your needs before theirs - especially as theirs were, clearly, acute.

For those who've been bereaved by suicide - I am sorry for your pain and bewilderment. I understand that anger is a normal part of grief, and I would still say it's wise to be aware of this when condemning the dead.

There is so much sadness and courage on this thread both from those who have experienced suicidal feelings and those who have lost loved ones. It seems so terribly inappropriate to have what is essentially a semantic argument about such a sensitive and emotionally fraught subject.

My own experience is of loss - my DM struggled for many years with periods of severe depression (she was bipolar) interspersed with long periods during which she was very well. We were very, very close and she was well loved in her community, as someone who campaigned for better mental health service provision and who, when well, was a wonderful, exuberant, funny, clever and most importantly, an incredibly unselfish character. She killed herself seven years ago, using the method which is held up as the epitome of ?selfish? suicide (she jumped in front of a train). As a teenager she had lost her father to suicide (he used the same method) and she was never really able to come to terms with it.

Following her death I have been weighed down by feelings of guilt and of feeling selfish myself. I?ve spent hours and hours going over the conversations we had in the days and weeks before her death, looking for some explanation as to what I could have done to help her. In all this time I have never considered her actions to be selfish. She was a tremendously kind, compassionate and generous person who happened to suffer from a debilitating illness from which she was unable to recover.

I do feel hugely sorry for the professionals (train driver, British Transport Police etc) involved in her death and its immediate aftermath. I cannot imagine what their experiences must have been or how they recover from such situations. I only hope that their employers provide sufficient support and counselling. I remember at the time feeling very strongly that I wanted to get a message of support to the driver of the train, and was able to do this via British Transport Police (although I don?t know if the message was passed along). The same is true for the mental health professionals involved in caring for her. Her CPN was affected quite badly by her death. I was able to contribute to the Serious Untoward Incident investigation that followed her death and stated that I wanted to see more effective actions put into place to support staff whose patients commit suicide.

I am in total agreement with the OP. My mum?s illness blinded her judgement to such an extent that labels such as selfish became irrelevant. She left only a short note but its essence was that she didn?t want to cause any more suffering. I really believe she thought I was better off without her. She had worked so hard to address the stigma of mental illness and it would be a terrible cruelty to view her as a selfish person because of one (albeit hugely significant) action in her entire life.

I left this thread for a while because I wanted to think things through a little. Since there have been several really thought provoking posts.

I think what faberge said sums up my feelings admirably and I can't add anything to it.

FiveLeaves What you said about feeling guilty really resonated with me.

On the Sunday that my brother killed himself I had been intending to ring him and, for whatever trivial reason that I can't now remember, I didn't. At various times since I have tortured myself wondering if something as simple as a phone call might have stopped him, given him pause.

I can't know. It might have. Maybe I would have already been too late. Maybe he wouldn't have picked up the phone. Maybe just a simple call would have meant that he would still be here, now.

God, I don't know. But I bloody well wish I had made that call. Just in case.

Why is it a selfish act and why do you have to justify it as being mentally ill. Some people find life hard and choose to end it. How is that being selfish? Why should people continue living a life that they find excruciating. I actually think it is a very rational act in a way, why assume that everybody aspires to keep living for the sake of it when they are deeply unhappy? It is a completely pragmatic act for anyone who finds life unbearable and is deeply unhappy.

SoniaGluck

What you said about phonecalls resonates with me. James sent me a text on the thursday asking me to meet him for a quick drink on my lunchbreak. I didn't want to go because I had a feeling my mum would be there and she drives me nuts at the best of times.

I sent a message to James that I was busy and would see him over the weekend. He sent one back saying sorry for bothering me.

He died in the early hours of the saturday morning. His last ever message to me was saying sorry for wanting to see me. I have spent so many hours wishing I had gone, maybe I would have 'seen' something in him, I might have been able to stop him. At the very least, I would have had one last precious hour with him.

Selfish hey? I am the selfish one, I couldn't put my antipathy towards my mum aside for one precious hour. I lost out on seeing my beautiful, funny, troubled James for one last time.

I wish that I had gone, even it was just to tell him that I loved him one more time.

A friend of mine who has previously been suicidal says she was most at risk when she was happy - because the memory of being miserable was so terrifying she couldn't contemplate suffering like that again. She was ready at that time to "go out on a high" effectively.

She is still convinced (and contentedly so) that she will be the architect of her own death. She finds that thought reassuring and empowering