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To state that suicide is NOT a selfish act ?

466 replies

Coffeenowplease · 10/08/2013 21:14

Really riled by this. People who commit suicide are ill and by the nature of their illness cannot think rationally so therefore cannot be "selfish" and think of the damage it causes to others.

I am so angry by this I had to make a post just to get it out.

Feel free to discuss.

OP posts:
SoniaGluck · 11/08/2013 14:08

mumof2 Nothing to add, just Flowers.

Solari · 11/08/2013 14:09

Thanks garlicagain, you very likely were! I must try and dig up that thread and update it for anyone wondering how it ended (I can't even remember where it left off myself).

Thanks also Sonia, and I'm very sorry for all that you've been through. I hope life gets kinder and brighter for you.

It really isn't possible to know what a person was thinking, and I now know from my own experience that mental health issues can really strike out of the blue, and show no signs! In my own case, if anything I was happier and more energetic than ever (getting quietly manic), and no one would ever have thought I was having the insane thoughts I was having.

From my perspective, the thoughts and delusions I was having were no different from reality. There was no distinction at all. And yet unless the topic came up specifically in conversation, I appeared completely lucid. Even the GP didn't realise the seriousness at first.

I just feel its an explanation worth putting out there, because I have no doubt some people have killed themselves in an entirely altered state with no obvious signs. Its an explanation that may be kinder than many of the others being thrown about the thread... my heart goes out to those who have had salt rubbed in their wounds here. Flowers

SoniaGluck · 11/08/2013 14:33

Thank you Solari.

Of course, I miss him. He was my only sibling. But I wouldn't have wanted him to go on living, suffering as he so obviously was. My feelings are similar to those expressed by mumof2.

If he could have got the help he needed and could have been well, then I could wish he was still here. But if he had had to live always in that dark place he so manifestly was, then I wouldn't want him back just to spare me pain.

Solari · 11/08/2013 14:45

SoniaGluck I think that's incredibly kind and selfless of you, it really is. And very rare to find in a person.

I admire your selflessness and courage so much, and wish we had more of you in the world... my God it would be a better place.

SoniaGluck · 11/08/2013 15:00

Thank you Solari but, honestly (and I'm not being falsely modest here), I don't think that I deserve such praise.

I'm very touched that you should say that, though. Flowers

NewAtThisMalarky · 11/08/2013 15:13

Those of you that are saying that suicide isn't selfish - do you honestly think that in the majority of cases the victim is considering everyone around them?

Or do you agree that they are doing it fir themselves?

Being selfish has a negative overtone, but there is nothing inherently wrong with doing what you feel is right for you. Its part of human nature. Ending relationships, leaving jobs, having children can all be described as selfish behaviour - it doesn't mean its wrong.

Fairylea · 11/08/2013 15:26

Newatthis - I don't think anyone with mental health issues considering or undertaking suicide has enough insight to even consciously make a decision relative to whether it is selfish. In most cases the idea of doing something just for you is alien because in most depressed suicides the person believes they are worthless and therefore not worthy of anything or any thought, even selfish ones.

garlicagain · 11/08/2013 15:35

True, Malarky, but it's clear from the negative posts on here that many people think suicides "shouldn't" do it because of the hurt they leave behind. To me, that's selfish thinking.

There's a story (Roald Dahl?), in which a grieving widow wishes her beloved husband hadn't died. Her wish is granted - but he died of a heart attack and, restored to the moment before his death, is condemned to eternal agony. With no more wishes, the thoughtless wife is left frantically seeking to re-kill him.

NewAtThisMalarky · 11/08/2013 15:42

Fairylea, does being unaware of something make it untrue? I don't think so, and its a point I already addressed earlier.

monicalewinski · 11/08/2013 15:43

Really powerful stuff on this thread, just awful to read what people are/have been going through.

I have always believed that suicide is selfish (my uncle did and a friend did, I nearly did last year but didn't only because of my boys), I still thought that until today - but reading posts on here has changed my mind. It is 'selfish' in as much as there is no acknowledgement of the devastation that is left behind, but when a person is in such a position that they can truly see no other way and they truly believe that everyone will be better without them, then how can that be selfish? It's not.

I'm so sorry for all the pain and heartache that posters on this thread have gone through, you are all so brave to talk so openly about what you have been through. Reading this thread has really made me think and question my thoughts on the subject.

Flowers to all of you who have suffered the loss of family and friends.

HorryIsUpduffed · 11/08/2013 15:50

For obvious reasons none of us can make pronouncements about what "all" or even "most" suicides were thinking at the time.

What many people have expressed on this thread, though, is that they considered the (perceived) likely impact on family, friends and others during their suicidal thoughts, as well as considering their own "relief" from suffering and other factors.

But some suicides are attempted in a moment of crisis and any idea of conscious thought doesn't necessarily apply. In those cases, the suicide considers himself as much - that is, as little - as anyone else and is acting on perverse instinct.

If to think of one's own wishes is selfish, then yes it's selfish; but I'm arguing that "not selfless" would be a far fairer description.

Spikeytree · 11/08/2013 15:52

To me, suicide will be the ultimate unselfish act because I am crap and absolutely everyone who has ever had to have anything to do with me will be better off without me being a drag on them.

My DSis has attempted lots of times, she has kids. She wasn't being selfish. She loves her kids so so much but when she isn't well, she believes that she is failing them and that they will do much better with a new 'mum'. She is a much better person than me, and it would devastate lots of people if she did die, but she isn't selfish.

NewAtThisMalarky · 11/08/2013 16:09

Spikey, sorry you feel that way. I'm sure your perception isn't reality though, it is tainted by your own feelings of lack of self worth.

I am very sure that there are people around you that care deeply, and would miss you very much - even if it doesn't feel that way to you at the moment.

I wish there was something I could say to help.

sausageandorangepickle · 11/08/2013 16:11

I've been reading this thread on and off since last night, and have posted earlier about my DH and his suicidal thoughts.

It seems to me (and I may be entirely wrong) that a lot of the people on this thread who think it is selfish are 'those left behind' by suicide. And a lot of the people saying it is not are those who have considered suicide themselves, mainly due to MH issues.

Obviously this is a complete generalisation, and I have been moved by many of the stories on here, especially mumof2boys, but maybe both 'sides' need to try see the other side of the argument a bit more - though I do appreciate that it is very hard to do when you are suffering.

ivykaty44 · 11/08/2013 16:27

sausages, I neither suffer from mental heath illness and never have done and I have not suffered the effects of a close relative committing suicide and being left behind.

My views are my own and as I see it mental health illness is just that - an illness but if it was a broken leg and you could see the plaster it would be far easier for people to understand. You wouldn't tell a man with a broken leg that they should go and run to catch a bus as you would be able to see that he wasn't capable of doing so. But mental health issues are dismissed therefore making the sufferers want to hide away.

LookingThroughTheFog · 11/08/2013 16:49

I've been torn about jumping in on this issue, but some people have said it's helpful to hear the stories, so you might as well hear mine. Also, because I've been thinking quite hard about the 'selfish for not trying to get well...' stuff.

When I was suicidal, I'd been on medication for three years, and was seeing a doctor regularly. I'd been through two lots of therapy. I had tried. I'd tried so bloody hard to prevent this happening, and I still got stuck there.

I have wanted to be dead, or more accurately in my case, 'assuming I should be dead' for quite a lot of the time, but I distinguish that from the times when I've been actively suicidal. Basically, between wishing or hoping or feeling the intense need to kill myself against the point where there are firm plans in place, and I'm prepared to take matters into my own hands. I'm lucky, because I've been actively suicidal for only about three weeks, and I'm exceptionally lucky, because I had just enough awareness that this was a symptom to be able to tell someone what was going on (and he was clueless, but it did at least give me the strength to tell someone else, who was brilliant).

The thing I remember most from that time, was the fact that it felt like something that was happening to me. Not something I had any control over at all.

Like I say, I've been depressed on and off for 15 years. I thought I knew all the signs. I've spent a lot of time not being able to plan beyond the next 3 minutes because I wasn't sure I was going to make it out of that 3 minutes. It was pain, yes, that's true, but it was also absolute terror that this thing, this thing inside me was out of control and I could do nothing about it.

I tried clever little things to keep me from harm. My planned methods in my 'I should probably be dead' state both involved a walk (I could never kill myself in the house where my children live), because I knew that the act of being outside and moving was likely to make some headway into the feelings of horror - I was likely to increase my heartrate and start feeling the wind and have something, anything, that was outside of me, and I know that these things can help just ease the blackness away a little bit.

So by these clever little methods, I tried my best to get myself through the next 3 minutes, and the next 3, and hope that slowly the feeling of intense, all consuming blackness would slowly ease up.

That is how I live. That's the reality. The thing is, that, above, with the sense of nothingness and blackness and that I just have to hold on with my fingernails and hope when there is no hope left... that's me basically controlled. That is NOT me suicidal.

What I hadn't expected was that it might get worse than that, and it did. Just this last April gone. I cannot adequately express what that felt like, apart from to say it was worse.

I had a plan. I knew when and where (not in the house), I knew who would find me (he's strong and sensible; he'll survive). I knew that I am without a doubt the most dangerous thing in my children's lives, and that I needed to remove that threat. They would be able to get well again; they'd have support, and they'd no longer have me, destroying them.

Even then, even through all that, it felt like it was something that was happening to me; not something that I had any control or choice over at all.

My exact words to my husband when I finally opened up to him was; 'we need to prepare the children for the fact that I can't fight this forever.'

I have been fighting it for years now, three minutes my three minutes, and I swear to God, I have worked and hung on and hung on. But I was absolutely, bottom of the pile exhausted, and I just didn't know how long those tiny, cotton threads would hold me. And it was terrifying. The pain of it; the physical pain was horrendous. Terrified to live, terrified to die, just utter terror, relentlessly. And having tried everything else, there was one certain way to stop that terror.

I'm not talking for everyone. I can't say that everyone who commits suicide is definitely ill, but having felt that terror, that pain... well, I just feel so awful for them. Of course I feel awful for those left behind, but... well. I just can't.

We're what, 5 months on from that 3 weeks of hell now. I'm still pretty raw. I'm on two sorts of medication now, and one of them is making me feel physically dreadful. Really unpleasant. The other makes me faint regularly. Still, I keep trying, because I genuinely don't want to fuck up my children's lives that way, and I have to do something about it when I'm basically well, because when I'm not, I can't.

Right now, I'm at the point where I accept that people think I'm better off alive, because they tell me so, but I don't see it and I can't feel it. I'm taking it on blind faith. People tell my my children are better of with me moody and changeable than not here at all, and again, I nod and say 'OK then', but I can't feel it.

What scares me beyond all measure is knowing how hard I fought last time, and how grueling that was, what will happen if that comes at me again. Will I be strong enough? I just don't know. The thought of it terrifies me.

Anyhow, I just thought I'd say. This is how it can feel from the inside, as it were.

Also, I know can I just say that arguing about the semantics of the word 'selfish' in this context is leaving me feeling a bit nauseous. We all know what people mean when they say it. I'm not proud of my past, and to be honest, I haven't got the spare energy to use on caring that people on the internet think I'm selfish. I'm conserving that for the fight that I'm probably going to be fighting for the rest of my life, hoping that at some point we find an effective treatment before I run out of strength. But it's grim.

HorryIsUpduffed · 11/08/2013 16:58

Looking Thanks for sharing so eloquently and honestly.

everlong · 11/08/2013 17:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SoniaGluck · 11/08/2013 17:05

Jesus, Looking. I don't know what to say beyond wishing you all the strength that you need to fight this terrible illness.

You are amazingly brave to have posted. Flowers

Coffeenowplease · 11/08/2013 17:09

looking Have a very unMN hug ((()))

OP posts:
Mumofthreeteens · 11/08/2013 17:38

issey6cats i know exactly what you mean by your posting at 00:35:15.

This is such a difficult topic for so many people. So much emotion. I would love to think that if one is a parent reading this and sadly finding life overwhelming that maybe, just maybe they might hesitate knowing how deeply it affects the children even when they become adults.

sausageandorangepickle · 11/08/2013 18:17

sausages, I neither suffer from mental heath illness and never have done and I have not suffered the effects of a close relative committing suicide and being left behind.

ivykaty I did say 'it seems to me' and 'a lot of people...' and that it was a generalisation. I am perfectly aware that people can have opinions on any subject without living it. I was just pointing out that for a lot of people their view on this subject seems to be coming from their own personal experience - as mine is.

I completely understand that someone who is suicidal may really and truly believe that their death will make things better for others, allow families to move on without them holding them back, prevent worse things happening, but surely the number of people who have posted saying they have attempted suicide in the past but wouldn't do so now, or they had suicidal thoughts but couldn't go through with it because of their children, is some anecdotal evidence that death doesn't have to be the only answer.

I am sorry if this seems to be unsympathetic to anyone bereaved by suicide, that is not my intention at all, just that in MY experience, although DH believed at the time that we would be 'better off without him' that was not true, and is still not true - he has had a change of meds and is having another round of counselling at the moment and things are better for him and all of us now, but I am aware it could change again in the future.

thebody · 11/08/2013 18:28

Looking, you have been and are a very very brave woman.

sharing that must have been so hard but has thrown so much light into these dreadful situations and feelings.

thoughts to all suffering now and to those left behind from these tragic acts.

NewAtThisMalarky · 11/08/2013 18:59

I'm sorry that you have had such a difficult time Looking. You are strong, you came through it. I sincerely hope that you never have that fight again.

And I'm sorry that defining selfish is making you feel that way, bit I do think its important. I want you to know that when I say it, it isn't in a judgemental 'you selfish bastard' way.

Much of the time when people say selfish, they mean thoughtless and uncaring too. That is absolutely not the case here, Imo. I think that people when they are in that situation often think too much, and care so much that it hurts. Its a totally different kind of selfish to, say, a father going to the pub after work when his wife is at home with the flu trying to look after the kids.

Someone said it would be better defined as 'not selfless', but that doesn't fit squarely either.

The closest 'other' word I can think of to fit is 'introverted'.

But although I think that the act of suicide can be selfish, I am not saying that anyone that has felt that way is a selfish person. Often they are anything but, which is why they have come to that point.

LookingThroughTheFog · 11/08/2013 19:24

I just wanted to say thank you, but I don't feel brave or impressive. I feel like a person who has an illness, and a lot of people are curious about it, so I'm giving my experience; that's all. And mostly it feels a bit shit, really.

Sausage, I just wanted to say how much sympathy I have for you. It's awful to go through, but at least I know what's happening in my head. My husband has to just trust that I'll be honest with him, and that I won't give up. That must be really, really hard. I'm not oblivious to that fact. If there was anything I could do to not be ill for his sake (and even more for the children's sake), I would do it.

At the moment, he's most distressed by the fainting. I tell him it's the least of my problems (in a jokey way - I'm mentally ill, but we can still have a laugh together). I suppose, as long as he's fretting away over that rather irrelevant part of it, he's not fretting so much about the other. Confused