To state that suicide is NOT a selfish act ?

[Coffeenowplease]

Really riled by this. People who commit suicide are ill and by the nature of their illness cannot think rationally so therefore cannot be "selfish" and think of the damage it causes to others.

I am so angry by this I had to make a post just to get it out.

Feel free to discuss.

there isn't medical help in cases, a high number of cases that have had and have sought medical help are failed as there is not enough research and assistance in preventing this awful disease and medical help is at a loss as to what can prevent this tragic end.

LackingEnergy, read the post by TheMagicKey just a little way up, and see if you can begin to understand why it isn't necessarily 'selfishness' which prevents a depressed person from seeking help.

I'm sorry that your family has been affected by suicide. Perhaps it would have been less inflammatory to make it clear in your previous post that you were referring to your reaction to your own experience and not passing judgement on everyone who finds themselves at that point, regardless of how different their circumstances and experiences may have been to yours or indeed your poor cousin's.

Altinkum you either do not understand what I am trying to say or you are ignoring it. I do not know which. My DH and I have over 50 years of combined experience at the coalface of MI and I can assure you that one thing youlearn fast is that 1) the subjective is not the objective, and 2) not to generalise.

I am not talking about 'a cry for help'. I am addressing your strongly held belief that all suicides are rooted in selfishness. They are not. Imagine a person who is so strongly psychotic that they believe they are personally responsible for recent natural disasters involving the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people over the years. Imagine that they believe that killing themselves will save thousands more. Imagine such strong persecutory third person command hallucinations telling a person to end their life because they are evil that they are compelled to do this? You cannot imagine this? Well, you have a lesser knowledge of severe and enduring MI than you think. I am not talking about depression, substance misuse et al although I do not agree that suicide amongst this demographic is necessarily selfish either.

Suicide needs to be firmly rooted within culture and philosophy too. And you cannot generalise. Sutti has been outlawed in India and was very much about a culture where widows were perceived as valueless in their society. Many were coerced into it and certainly all were victims of cultural conditioning. Yet selfish to do it? I think not. There is a strong tradition of politically driven suicide amidst some cultures too. Think Buddhist monks during the Vietnam war. Selfish? No.

And not all suicide attempts/successes are about a cry for help. Think Dignitas. Think Tony Nicholson's attempts at changing the law. These are all suicides too. Selfish? I think not. Do not generalise.

Lacking This, Selfish. End of. is how my mother used to regard suicide.

But now, having gone through the experience of losing her son, she does see things a little differently. She now understands that, sometimes, for some people, going on living is impossible. Too painful to be contemplated.

Losing a loved one, in any circumstances, is just about the most difficult thing most of us will have to face.

I cannot see the point in adding to the pain by blaming the person who, for whatever reason, feels they have no other option but to kill themselves.

For me, such an attitude lacks compassion.

And just to add to the 'cry for help' argument, suicidal people who use very destructive methods to commit suicide are not 'crying for help' or hoping to be found in time. Jumping from high places, using trains and other methods with high lethality all have their own set of research findings. They fully intend to die and will ensure that this happens.

And my condolences and thank you's to all the very brave people on this thread whose stories all help my understand of what severe MI is and the impact it has.

to you all.

everlong I meant to say how much your post touched me. And how sorry I am.

This is not a topic suited for AIBU. :( Tacky and just cruel to put this next to the threads wondering if they're unreasonable for wanting spaghetti for tea.

R.I.P loved ones.

I disagree that the topic should not be here. MI isolates people. Suicidal ideation is a hidden secret part of everyday life for many. The more we can incorporate discussions on these difficult topics into the forefront, the better innstead of hiding it away where it cannot 'spoil' our lighthearted chats. People can choose not to click on it. But it is a conversation that needs to be had and needs 'de-ghettoising'. Then maybe less people would suffer in silence.

I cannot see the point in adding to the pain by blaming the person who, for whatever reason, feels they have no other option but to kill themselves.

For me, such an attitude lacks compassion.

I wish my cousin had sought help for both his depression and his debts. We would all have helped and supported him but he never gave us a chance.

At the time I used to sit next to a girl who constantly cut herself. Never in the right place or deep enough to do any harm. A cry for help? Most likely but I felt nothing for her, my cousin had succeeded in doing something she bragged about attempting. I snapped at her more than once, I'm not happy about it but I was in a bad place.

My sister has been fragile since, so the family go to extreme lengths to keep her happy. I bottled up my own feelings as her need for help was far greater than mine.

My Aunt refuses to acknowledge her birthday and feels responsible.

I cannot begin to understand the feelings and thought process involved, all I see are the consequences of his actions. Knowing that he probably didn't think he had any other option does not make it any better for those left behind

My reasons for it being here are upthread. I did offer to move/delete. Feel free to report or offer suggestions but I feel the same way as Migonette that yes it is a difficult topic but it shouldnt be hidden either.

Im going out for a bit now so will be back to check later on.

LackingEnergy Maybe my own post was lacking in compassion. Sorry. I've been reduced to tears several times by this thread and have had to walk away from it a couple of times.

Getting help isn't always an easy thing to do, though, is it?

I understand being in a bad place. Many times I've thought that I was over the shock of my brother's death and then something, a piece of music he liked or seeing one of his friends, will remind me of him and I will be crying. Like now, this thread is quite hard to deal with in some ways.

But still worthwhile to get a little more understanding. I do feel for all the people struggling with MH problems themselves or on account of a loved one's actions.

I just recently nearly killed myself (had to be hospitalised) because I suddenly and without warning spiralled into a manic psychotic state after childbirth (I actually posted a thread about this at the time under a NC, and was thankfully talked around by MNers!)

At the peak, I heard/saw entities telling me that this life was all an illusion for the purpose of a mass test and it had finished so I could leave whenever I wanted. Everyone was "in" on the test, and no one would be sad or devastated when I left, they would just greet me, smiling, on the other side.

I went to the GP under the wise pressure of MN, against all my misgivings, and after initially just keeping an eye on me, they admitted me when reality suddenly exploded for me. It saved my life. Otherwise, I could well have been one of those bodies on a track, and no one would ever have known what happened (was very happy/smiley, and felt no need to leave a note because they all already "knew" in my mind, and just couldn't break the act!)

There is no way to know what is really going through someone's mind when they do something like this. It breaks my heart to think I could have left behind my DH and children who would have forever wondered why I hadn't thought of them.

Sonia.

Thanks mignonette.

I think this thread is probably bringing up uncomfortable and distressing feelings for a lot of people.

I find it baffling that people continue to post "suicide is selfish, end of" despite there being some heart wrenching stories of loss above. How lacking in empathy must you be to do that?! I think some people would do to be reminded that firstly, you are talking/typing to real human being and that you are speaking ill of our loves ones by calling then selfish.

Solari I am so glad that you got the help that you needed.

I agree that you can't ever be sure how people are really unless they explicitly tell you. It's not always possible to know just from behaviour; some people are very good at hiding the desperation that they feel.

My son killed himself last year, I have spoken about his death a lot on here.

He hung himself, his only brother found him. Was he selfish? No, he was ill. He had bi-polar. He couldn't see that there was any alternative, in his journal, he wrote that 'this bi-polar is killing me'

He chose when to end his illness, he chose when the time was right for him. He wrote and told us why, he apologised for being ILL. He said that he was sorry for being unwell.

He was the bravest young man I have ever known (apart from his brother) he faced his illness and took a decision based on his personal experience of it.

We miss him every single minute of every single day. There is a crater in our lives where he should be. I have been on my knees with grief and loss. Do I think for a moment that it was a selfish act? No, I know that my sons pain and fight is over, I know that he has peace now. I know that it is over for him.

Selfish would have been making him stay with us for our needs. Our pain at not having him is immense but it is so small compared to his pain every day of his life.

His illness was cruel and a burden he wasn't strong enough to carry. I am guilty of not seeing that, I am guilty of not understanding the illness.

He took a brave, selfless decision, he was terrifed of being a burden to us, he was terrifed of destroying our love for him (wasn't going to happen, but that was how he felt) He believed that he was making the right and only decision for all of us as a family. That isn't selfish, its heartbreaking and tragic and painful.

Would I want him back? In a heartbeat but not ill, if that was the only way to have him back, then I wouldn't want him back.

Suicide is an act of bravery borne from desperation and pain. It is not selfish or cowardly or the easy option.

Solari, I may have been on your thread (also under a different name.)
I'm thrilled to see you're out the other side of that weird episode! Thanks for posting :) :)

Mumof2 ❤

mumof2 you are so very brave, and my heart goes out to you and your family. Your post explains so much so well.

mumof2teenboys, that is a wonderfully moving post and I am so sorry to hear about your loss. I totally agree with you regarding the bravery side of it. A friend of mine lost his friend to suicide and he said a similar thing to me, he had also lost a friend to cancer around about the same time. He was obviously devestated about both of them and he said that both of his friends had illnesses that meant that they couldn't live anymore.

Mum of 2,

thank you for posting, for your understanding, on behalf of those of us who are like your son.

Mum would it help you to know that I remember and think of every single patient I have met via my work who has committed suicide? That my family owns some land with a little wood and I have planted a tree for the (thankfully few) patients on my case load who over the years have gone on to do this? We build quite a bond over the years with our clients and mourn them too. Sometimes the hell and burden of their mental illnesses is just too much. Sometimes expecting them to endure the often-not brilliant treatment available is just too much to expect.

We in the MH services, we remember your family members too.