To state that suicide is NOT a selfish act ?

[Coffeenowplease]

Really riled by this. People who commit suicide are ill and by the nature of their illness cannot think rationally so therefore cannot be "selfish" and think of the damage it causes to others.

I am so angry by this I had to make a post just to get it out.

Feel free to discuss.

What is 'an act with selfish consequences'?

Consequences cannot, by their very nature, be selfish. That is a human trait, and not the trait of events post action.

I don't think it is selfish at all.

My friend lost her 16 year old son to suicide. No one even knew he was struggling, he came across as such a happy go lucky boy and the family were all very close and the night before they were laughing around playing games and he just seemed his normal happy self.

The parents literally aged overnight, it was heartbreaking to see and because there were no warning signs the guilt they felt was just immense.

I could never say it was selfish. I don't believe anyone who kills themselves is selfish, they feel like it is best for everyone if they are gone and I could never ever judge anyone who is so low that they feel that way.

My husband has an illness where the suicide rates are quite high, it is often on my mind that one day the pain he suffers will be too much for him. He gets help, he is medicated but nothing will stop the periods of depression he get and yes, I fear that one day it will just be too much for him. Living in that much pain is torture.

I am so sorry for anyone who has lost someone to suicide, but I also thank you for opening up and sharing your stories.

What really gets me now, having been through it with my mother and how I am more aware of the issue, just how many people have suffered from losing loved ones in this way.

Our student neighbour committed suicide just before xmas, and his mum came home from work at lunch time to find him. It was awful for her, and then to have the police question her. I spoke to her some time after and she was still waiting for the coroner's verdict. I can remember that waiting feeling much longer than when a loved one dies due to illness.

I also know a divorced father whose eldest killed herself, his ex wife blamed him for it. He himself now struggles with suicidal thoughts and has been admitted to hospital twice now. He keeps himself going for his other children but the light has gone out of his eyes and I think he would agree he is just existing.

For those who have never experienced this kind of loss please be careful with your postings and what you say to those suffering in real life. it is not something many people quite recover from.

It is incredibly selfish, you're basically saying

I'm not strong enough to get through this, even with my family (may include SO/DH/W and DC) and friends. So I'm going to leave my family and potentially my friends to not only get through the situation that I couldn't but to do it while dealing with the loss of a loved one and all the bad feelings and 'what if I'd seen the signs/not believed you when you said you were ok. Could I have stopped yous' associated with suicide.

The only person you are thinking about is yourself when contemplating suicide.

Selfish. End of.

"I could never say it was selfish. I don't believe anyone who kills themselves is selfish, they feel like it is best for everyone if they are gone and I could never ever judge anyone who is so low that they feel that way."

I guess it depends on how you define selfish. My definition is not taking into account others thoughts and feelings. I genuinely think that most people that commit suicide do not take into account other people's feelings - and you say yourself that they 'feel like it is best for everyone'. That isn't taking into account other people's feelings - only their perception of other people's feelings, which isn't the same thing.

The problem seems to be that saying something is selfish makes people immediately go on the defensive, it is perceived that selfishness is a deliberate decision. That is not always the case, and it is certainly not the case when it comes to mental health problems. I know from my own personal experience.

I had a horrendous few years which ended up with me being off work with acute stress. I had never been so self-involved, self0centred and selfish before in my life. It didn't feel like that at the time, but looking back I can see that was the case. I lost what I thought were good friends over it. I was selfish - but it wasn't deliberate, it was a symptom of the issues I needed to deal with.

There was a thread recently about another subject that touched on this.

A friend of mine committed suicide some years ago (3rd Jan) and when I heard, I was totally shocked but a bit of me wasn't surprised. He had always been a perfectionist in everything he did and I believe things got too much for him, he could not achieve what he wanted and felt a complete failure. He never told anyone how he felt, he never took the step to get help and support from anyone. He planned his death carefully and left all his financial affairs in order. He took his car to a remote place and died by exhaust fumes. He did it this way to minimise inconvenience to others (like not jumping in front of a train for example).

The thing is, he left a completely devastated mum and dad behind. They will never get over this. Further, a couple of years earlier their other son had died in a car accident.

Was my friend selfish? Yes, he could have reached out and got help. He didn't think about how his suicide would affect his family.

I think about him every time I go running and hill walking because this was what we used to do together with other friends. I ask myself why he never said a word, he never gave us a chance...

It is completely selfish. It is done to remove yourself from a situation in which you cannot cope - even if you think it is best for everyone else, ultimately you wouldn't be doing it if you didn't think you would get that release from the hell that you are going through.

Morning. And thanks for all the reports about this thread.

We do understand that some folks may find discussions of this kind distressing (((((hugs))))) and we hope that you will take advantage of the 'hide thread' button to hide it from your view of Active Convos.

We also understand that some people are worried about others who might find this discussion distressing but we do think the thread title is worded obviously enough to give folks fair warning of what the discussion is about and the sort of comments it's likely to contain.

That said, we do join others in strongly urging those few posters who've posted their own suicidal feelings on this thread to seek real-life help.

We know that many posters are immensely supportive and sensible in these situations, but, as we at MNHQ do not check the knowledge, experience or professional qualifications of anyone posting on Mumsnet Talk, this is not necessarily the best place to seek help if you're feeling seriously distressed or suicidal. Instead, we'd urge you to look at our mental-health web guide which can point you to expert advice and support.

Finally, we do need to remind you all that personal attacks do break our guidelines. We do utterly appreciate that this is a immensely emotive subject but we're sure you can all find ways to express your own point of view without attacking other posters personally.

Do please report any personal attacks to us and we will delete them (if they are indeed personal attacks).

Please do also report any posts that might concern you in other ways: we do, of course, welcome threads where ignorance/misapprehension of serious mental-health issues can be corrected/debunked but we would tend to delete posts that are beyond the pale (eg: "suicidal folk are selfish: we're well rid of them").

I did consider reporting this thread last night in the hope that it would be deleted.

op totally understand your post but its such a terrible and complex area that obviously some posters will have been affected by suicide and not sure discussions like this help in amy way as each case is different.

so sorry for those affected.

An act with selfish consequences is a way of describing an act which isn't carried out from selfish motives, but has consequences which appear selfish. It's just a question of separating the motivation from the consequences.

Taking the last piece of cake is a selfish act; declining a cake could be an act with selfish consequences if the person offering feels the refuser is being self-indulgent or snobby or something.

As for the suggestion that a suicide is selfish because they consider the perceived feelings of others rather than the actual feelings of others, perhaps you could explain how on earth we can ever do anything else? We can only ever guess at others' feelings even if they tell us how they feel, because we never know if they're being truthful or not.

"They'd be sad for a while but they'd be better off in the long run" is a justification used when moving house and requiring a child to change school, for example. It's a guess.

LackingEnergy, the very fact you construct your assumption of the thought processes of a person with suicidal ideation into such a logical and coherent format proves you have little understanding of what feeling suicidal feels. The fact you refer to a "situation" which the suicidal person can't cope with while those around him/her do cope, with the inference the suicidal person is weak, proves you have little understanding of what mental illness entails. Much mental illness is not situational or reactive. It just is, in the same way people who have never smoked can contract lung cancer. Do you assume someone who dies of cancer is weak?

Having a mental illness is not selfish, you do not choose to have a mental illness any more than you choose to have a physical illness.

You can choose to be selfish and commit selfish acts but then it is a choice and illness is not a choice.

Suicide is the number one killer of men aged between 18-45 it kills more men in this age than cancer or heart disease. There are so many taboos about mental illness and until people realise that suicide is caused through illness and remove the taboo those figures will increase rather than decrease.

Most people will have given money to cancer research or heart disease, very few give to mental illness

Tabby it's not that easy to reach out and get help. Honestly. Many mental health disorders mean the whole point is it's harder to get help. I have depression, it means I hate myself, I think I'm broken and wrong but more to the point, I think this is normal. Would you get help if you thought you were completely normal? No. I thought my suicidal thoughts (daydreaming and planning) were odd but not depression, because that wouldn't be me and because I was terrified what everybody would think and felt guilty about my thoughts. You can't just go out and get help.

Sadness means you can say, 'I feel sad'. Depression means you hate yourself for feeling like that and you hide yourself and pretend it's all okay. Sometimes you really feel like you can't say a word.

Good point MagicKey. And you don't feel you deserve help anyway.

"As for the suggestion that a suicide is selfish because they consider the perceived feelings of others rather than the actual feelings of others, perhaps you could explain how on earth we can ever do anything else? We can only ever guess at others' feelings even if they tell us how they feel, because we never know if they're being truthful or not."

You raise an interesting point. When someone is feeling suicidal, they are feeling exceedingly negative about their own situation. They are far far less likely to have an accurate feel for how highly others regard them. And they are unlikely to bring it up in conversation.

I think it is much harder for someone in that circumstance to have an accurate feel for how others around them feel, as everything feels so negative.

It might not always be possible to know exactly how others are feeling, but in most circumstances it is easier to figure it out, or discuss things if you aren't sure.

Bertrude, I think you are mistaken. People commit suicide with a whole variety of reasons. " It is done to remove yourself from a situation in which you cannot cope" How do you know that? That is only one explanation that the people left come up with. Unless there is a note.

In my only 'intimate' experience of this my best friend took a tonne of tranquilsers in a way that he knew he would not be found until he was dead. His partner and I knew he was doing what he thought was an act of love, so we nor anyone else would have to put up with him anymore. In his internal dialogue it would have been an act of bravery, not selfishness.

ivykaty - I hope I didn't give the impression that mental illness is selfish. That really wasn't what I mean't.

I mean't I was selfish as a symptom of my mental ill health. I wouldn't say that is the same for all - I know someone who becomes so selfless when she has depression, she feels she is worthless and to give herself worth she tries to be everything to everybody.

The rationality argument is compromised by the experience of people in chronic pain for example, and poss additionally in old age and wish for their life to end. A lot of people wouldn't call this 'irrational' but then it begs the question 'who decides how far on the pain/age scales it becomes okay to wish to end one's life and be rational about it'?
Sorry if this has been covered upthread.

No way are Y.B.U. Suicide is never a selfish act (ever) these poor people have got to stage where they can't take anymore and as every sensible person knows there is only so much that a human being can take. xx

LackingEnergy, the very fact you construct your assumption of the thought processes of a person with suicidal ideation into such a logical and coherent format proves you have little understanding of what feeling suicidal feels. The fact you refer to a "situation" which the suicidal person can't cope with while those around him/her do cope, with the inference the suicidal person is weak, proves you have little understanding of what mental illness entails. Much mental illness is not situational or reactive. It just is, in the same way people who have never smoked can contract lung cancer. Do you assume someone who dies of cancer is weak?

I understand enough to know that my cousin was incredibly selfish to not seek help with his depression or his debts. He left a family and friends he loved and who loved him. He chose to commit suicide on his mums birthday knowing that my sister (18 at the time) would be the one to find him.

I do not assume someone who dies from cancer is weak

I do however believe that if suicide is the only way. Then it should be done with the help of medical professionals after exhausting all other means of help

LackingEnergy so given that that option isn't currently available in the UK...?

Lacking - your last line there is entirely unfeasible. And, imho, not at all understanding of the twisted, tragic 'logic' that suicidal people apply to decision-making and how to apply those decisions.
I am sorry your sister was left with the grim discovery.

Morning Helen
Morning everyone else.

I just wanted to thank everyone for their views and sharing their experiences. And to reiterate it was not my intention to upset anyone, and my main intention was to have a discussion on a well used topic where as helen said "ignorance/misapprehension of serious mental-health issues can be corrected/debunked" and perhaps just a tiny bit more awareness and understanding can be gained.

I havent intended to upset anyone and did offer up thread to have this deleted or moved if anyone wanted. That offter still stands and HQ im sure would delete if they felt this thread was inappropriate/offensive.

I also want to add that personally yes I do have experience of this topic but did not wish to state in my OP. I have serious but currently well controlled MH problems and have been hospitalised before. I also have friends (some whom I met whilst in hospital) that have attempted suicide and have MH problems still so I am admittedly looking at the subject from that perspective but I wanted to hear views of people who were on the other side so to speak.

One friend often attempted suicide. She was determined to succeed - she was moved to a more secure unit while I was too unwell to keep in touch then I often think about her. She had been unwell for many years and so desperately did not want to live the way she was having to. At the time I hoped she would do whatever was best for her but at the same til so wanted her to recover and be "normal" one day. Im sure it would not have been the easy way out for her if she did finally manage it.