To state that suicide is NOT a selfish act ?

[Coffeenowplease]

Really riled by this. People who commit suicide are ill and by the nature of their illness cannot think rationally so therefore cannot be "selfish" and think of the damage it causes to others.

I am so angry by this I had to make a post just to get it out.

Feel free to discuss.

I've woken this morning to see some incredibly sad and touching posts. for all, although it feels inadequate. Like expat said, suicide leaves so many unanswered questions behind.

Of course you can still think it's selfish and have been suicidal. I nearly managed it once and think it is very selfish.

Oh everlong that's just awful I am so so sorry.

As TheApprentice has said, I feel we have no right to demand people live a life they do not want because others would miss them. No one would miss me so theoretically I can end my life at any time (provided I don't jump under a train.) Would it be selfish if someone like me, with no DCs or family, did it?

My dh was in intensive care for a month on life support after an attempt, it the worst time of my life. He was selfish. Ill, yes, not being logical, yes. To blame? Yes! His choice, his selfish choice.

It's good to be compassionate and I don't think he deserves anything other than support, nor do families of those left behind.

Everyone is going to have different opinions based on their subjective experience. We don't need to figure out what is "right". I think it's selfish, a ok someone else does not, surely that's fine.

Manateen, do you not have parents or friends?

I'm so sorry for your loss everlong

Nand are you actually being serious? Your post is a nasty piece of work.

It's not selfish, it's tragic.

I agree. Sometimes it is the only way to stop the pain, and if you've never been there is is unreasonable to assume anything about how that person is feeling.

Havent got time to read the whole thread.Will do later.
[I know op which thread you are referring to. As I hinted at, I am not at all surprised by the posts on here].

Not sure if these pointhave already been mentioned.
When a person commits suicide, they are feeling ill. Not a sort of ill that a person can often see. But it has affected how they think.
And unfortunately it affects how a person thinks, to such an extent that they are unable to think their way out of it.
So imagine you have a problem, but are unable to think your way out of it. And also, your judgement is skewed. So you dont know who to trust anymore, and who is giving you good advice, and who is giving you, often unintentionally, wrong advice.
In other words, you are very mixed up and worried.

Oh the saddest thread I've ever read on mn

How I wish that word could removed from ever being associated with suicide .

I feel able to let the person i loved go as I wouldn't want them to be suffering any more . It's definitely more selfish to want them to be here so deeply hurting and in such pain and trauma that they can no longer go on. She just wanted to sleep and be with the ones she had lost and who am I to have an opinion on that . Like people I know who have had cancer and are exhausted with the pain and just want to sleep , for it to be over , I understand . I wouldn't wish such pain on anyone . I think as humans we all have our limit .

Love and peace to you all who have experienced it in all it's forms .

I posted yesterday evening about my DH, and I think other posters since me have summed up my feelings well

I think that it's a selfish act but that the person was not intentionally being selfish. If somebody is that low and unhappy then they are not going to be thinking rationally. It's like with children, label the behaviour and not the child.

and

It is a selfish act, but the person is not thinking straight so it's not their fault they're selfish.

I think it's much more comfortable to blame people, so easy to understand why alot of people have that knee jerk 'people who kill themselves are selfish', full of anger and distaste. Easy to understand and not easy to forgive.

Life has dealt me blow after blow and the people that are supposed to help, don't. Agencies, family, friends etc etc etc. If I didn't have my little boy, I would have definitely killed myself. I cannot because I can't ruin my child life but its not an easy thing to have to do, and I sometimes really really hate that I can't put myself out of my misery.

NandH how do you know the young man wasn't ill? Mental ilness isn't visible, people with depression dont have flashing neon signs on their heads announcing it to the world.
I hid my depression from everyone, even.denying it to myself for 2 years. Even after diagnosis people didn't know. If I mention it now the most common response is along the lines of "depression? you? Really? I never realised, I mean you always seemed so normal"
If I'd gone ahead with my suicide plans, I reckon people would now be saying "she was a young mum, she had so much going for her. She didn't have any mh issues, I just can't understand it"
When in reality, getting out of bed was such hard work. The logistics involved in getting washed and dressed seemed too complicated. I did it so that my boys had normalcy, but was was so fucking difficult.

Yabu. It is a totally selfish act

I think that it is (usually) selfish in that, generally speaking, someone committing suicide is primarily concerned with their own thoughts and feelings and are not taking into account the thoughts and feelings of those around them.

Of course, there are exceptions. The terminally ill or disabled person that knows that their passing will mean that life for those around them will return to some semblance of normality, and does the deed in such a way as to minimise suffering, for one.

Someone choosing to take their own life can be entirely understandable knowing the circumstances they have found themselves in (be it mental health issues, financial problems, family issues etc), but that doesn't preclude the possibility that it can also be a selfish act.

Having said that, I feel nothing but sorrow for anyone that has found themselves in the position that they feel this is the best option available to them.

I hope all of you that have been touched by suicide have managed to find peace and comfort.

It's an extremely complicated area and I don't see how we can generalise so broadly by saying something like "no suicide is ever selfish".

Having said that, the two family suicides I have had experience of (which makes me sound very cold) have both come about as a result of severe mental health issues.

Going back further than that, who's to say whether it was or was not the drug use of one of these cases that brought on his paranoid schizophrenia, which eventually led to his suicide?

All I think we can surmise is that it would be helpful if people tried to be as compassionate as possible when judging suicides, and don't assume that all circumstances applied for all cases. I hope this makes sense.

NandH, the young lad you knew may have been ill. He may not have been ill. Unless you know that he had suicidal ideation, the most likely explanation is that he acted on an impulse to get away from his Dad and the conflict, but didn't think through the consequences of his action.

Do you honestly think he intended to die?

Suicide is intentional death by the individual, not doing something that leads to death. That's why coroners have to rule on deaths - all actions that lead to death are not suicide.

Everlong I am so sorry that you have experienced the death of your child to suicide. It's one of those things that never really ends. My brother's fiancee died after hanging herself. I can't remember now whether the verdict was misadventure or suicide. She had taken an overdose the night before but seemed ok. I still think about her now, years later.

I agree Ineed When I was suicidal, no one knew. I kept a face. I smiled, I was funny, I was always cheerful, if I'd died naturally, they'd probably have described me as always happy or whatever. No one but for myself knew the pain I was putting myself through, day in, day out. Little stresses, building up. I remember sitting down on Friday night sobbing and just wanting to end it all because on Monday I'd have to go back to work and see people and hide what I feel again. Death would end that all. Could anybody tell? No. Did I visit the doctors? No. It was kind of a weird moment when I realised that it wasn't normal and I needed help, and I was very lucky that I reached that point, many can't and don't. It's like with SN- no diagnosis doesn't mean you have it. I heard a close friend being described as selfish. She had no MH problems. She had two young children, she had a husband who loved her, she was happy. She committed suicide. Turned out she DID have MH problems, albeit undiagnosed. NandH they could easily have been mentally ill. No one knows.

So much sorrow on this thread. And so much judgement as well. I hope everyone who's suffering - whether through bereavement or through mental health difficulties - finds some peace.

I don't think anyone can presume to know what's going on in anyone else's head. A person might appear fine, but be struggling with unimaginable torment and despair. We simply don't know.

I keep feeling suicidal and have done for years; I've been very close to it.

From a rational point of view it may seem selfish (my family would be devastated apparently) but I don't feel that as a reality even though it is.

In the last few days I've not been feeling especially rational.

I think my point is that when you feel suicidal the actual intent isn't selfish because you don't feel logical in that way.

Are we adjucating on suicide now?

I think it is a selfish act, maybe unintentionally, maybe not, depending on each individual cases. I read a lot about suicide, as my father took his own life when I was a child, and survivors have expressed thoughts of punishing their friends/family through their attempt.

Nothing evolving human psyche is straightforward.

There is something positive in saying it is selfish. It may help someone hang on a bit longer until they get better/the solution comes into view.

I'm glad recent posters have understood the difference between a selfish act and an act with selfish consequences.

Also perhaps it would be helpful to make a distinction between suicide threats and suicide attempts.

Throwing oneself under a train may have traumatic consequences for third parties, but it's a pretty failsafe death method. Someone who tries that definitely wants to be dead when they try it. Ditto jumping off or out of buildings. Overdoses on the other hand often fail, and need a lot of planning/stockpiling that might arouse suspicion. If you're that intent on dying you don't want to be "helped" away from that course of action, or prevented in any way.

A poster upthread talked about teenagers who seem to find suicide glamorous or romantic - publicly planning, discussing or rehearsing elaborate or dramatic exits. Also discussed were people who announce that they will kill themselves for revenge or other reasons. I'd say that those people aren't suicidal precisely. If they attempt suicide they may well use methods with a way out - OD just before someone is due to come home, or ringing 999. This is the classic "cry for help" scenario which of course signifies mental illness of some kind but not necessarily suicidal thoughts.

Unfortunately sometimes "cry for help" attempts succeed. This appears to have happened to a teenage friend of DH's some years ago. She just wasn't found in time.

Finally, I read fairly recently that suicides are fairly common in nice hotels. People give themselves one nice relaxed evening alone, then die safe in the knowledge that they are in the hands of unrelated experts. Still horrible for the cleaner or porter who finds them, but less so than for a grieving, helpless relative.