To state that suicide is NOT a selfish act ?

[Coffeenowplease]

Really riled by this. People who commit suicide are ill and by the nature of their illness cannot think rationally so therefore cannot be "selfish" and think of the damage it causes to others.

I am so angry by this I had to make a post just to get it out.

Feel free to discuss.

My dad battled depression for many years. At the worst of it he was actually sectioned. He succeeded in commiting suicide nearly 13 years ago. I used to think I could have prevented it but I realise now through my own MH Issues that that wasn't the case.

I don't think he was selfish he just couldn't see any other way.

never your post sums up how I felt, but you've worded it far better than I could.

And the post about your friend and her dh is heart wrenching :( just tragic.

Wow, such a sad thread. :( My heart goes out to all who have suffered on this thread. Bathsheba hang in there lovely.

I've been actively suicidal twice in my life. The first time I made an impulsive overdose - I felt worthless and reasoned that I had no importance to my friends and family.

The second time was worse. My closest friend killed herself - we'd been friends since childhood. She was a drug addict, in crippling debt, recovering from a rape... I've finally, after years, come to the conclusion that what she did wasn't selfish as such - it's just that her own coping mechanisms were exceeded by the problems she faced. She was so proud, if she'd been able to ask for help there were many who would have supported her.

A few months after she died I planned how to kill myself. But I couldn't work out how to do it without hurting my cats, and the person who would find me. So I got help, and I'm so grateful. I haven't felt suicidal since.

I've since lost another friend to suicide. He struggled his whole life with mental health issues. He found his dad dead from suicide when he was a little boy of 11. He has a little boy :(

Never, there is so little that can truly upset me now. I have held me daughter as the vent was pulled out and she died in my arms in seconds.

She is as dead as any of the other parents' children who died from suicide.

She will never come back anymore than they will and so my existence is to be there for them, and this club NO ONE wants to join.

I know people whose children have died from suicide and it is the same as mine or anyone's loss and none of them thinks anything but they same questions and guilt I have.

Why add to someone's grief when you know nothing of it, thankfully? Of a parent whose child is dead.

What is there to gain? It will bring no one back anymore than we can bring her. Even she, at 9, could see suicide as someone who was as ill as she was, just in a different way. How can a child, who died of cancer, see that and others not?

I think this should be deleted, tbh. But it's like my child's death, outside my control.

I've been suicidal ...lots of people have made points that I can really relate to...
This took a long time to write -sorry it is very very long.. just read Nevers post...and I really relate to it ...
20 yrs ago - at my worst - I was early 20s, no children, estranged from my family, just split from long term partner...and a few months before had realised that after working incredible hard to achieve my ambition ... it was actually pointless and had no idea where to go. ..
Then my life really fell apart.
A series of illnesses- then seriously ill, nearly died, partially crippled (was told for life but better now) and diagnosed with a little understood condition facing a life time of medication and always under the threat of another 'episode' - which this time could kill me...
Being unable to work/go out I had lots and lots of time to think ....I was in a very dark place... I couldn't do this anymore ....every day was a battle that I didn't want to keep fighting...and I had no future anyway...
Thinking about it - no one would really miss me...and I was probably going to die anyway...

Then I thought of my grandad ...he lived a long way away, a pretty straightforward, lovely, really gentle man. He didn't know me now - the adult - he still thought of me as a child ... still called me by his pet name for me ...he really really wouldn't understand...if I died he would be sad - but to actually kill myself - I couldn't do that to him...it would kill him - I really wasn't worth that.
I had to make it look like an accident...I started planning -obviously no note, everything from 'falling' under a tube train (at rush hour, busy stations -but have to have an excuse to be there) to electrocuting myself with a kettle...
I couldn't tell anyone how I felt - because once I did it couldn't be an accident...or someone might try and stop me and I couldn't face that.

I had a GP appointment ... I don't know if she realised something wasn't right - maybe I was too cheerful? - or it was just luck -but as I was opening the door to leave (let myself start to relax a little -stop faking) she asked me how I was 'in myself' - I turned round smile on my face to say 'oh I'm ok' but instead with the smile the words 'I want to die' came out ...and that was it.
I never complain about waiting for a GP running late - I must have seriously messed up her appointments that afternoon. I sat and sobbed while she set up emergency counseling, antidepressants, etc etc made sure it was 'safe' to let me leave - honestly part of the reason for the tears was that I was trapped ...now I couldn't do it.
Towards the end of my counseling, a good friend questioned why I needed antidepressants ...I started telling them a fraction of how I still felt and they were in tears - showing how well I had covered it up and also the nature of depression - that made me feel absolutely terrible - I was so worthless and useless and stupid ...how could I upset her like that - and I was also really surprised that she was upset...

Things have got better - at times I have been fighting depression - getting used to and living with the constant fear of another 'episode' is hard and takes time (so far I have been 'fine' - so feel safer)...

I know the signs of depression and can usually act before it gets too bad ...and I couldn't have 'an accident' now...I do understand if you don't know the signs how easy it is to fall into that dark place...

I have children ..at one low point - with one DC challenging behaviour and me fighting depression - the thought that they would be better off without me came into my head - set the alarm bells off - I got help straight away...

I know someone whose mother committed suicide when she was so young that she can't remember her ....and the effect that had on her and her family - including a (much older) sibling committing suicide too...

I can understand (but not condone) why people kill their families before committing suicide ...

If you have DCs -even if you are the worst, most useless, pathetic person in the world - you are and always will be their mother...just the fact that their mother killed themselves will cause harm

So for me I do think suicide is selfish - you escape and yet it hurts and damages the people you leave behind - (And I really have to believe that or I wouldn't still be alive)

And you have to believe the darkness does lift and when it does you really appreciate just what being happy is and means...

My BIL's father committed suicide. He was in his mid-20s. He had been, as a poor white, drafted to fight in the VietNam Conflict. He was injured to paralysis there. A piece of land mine completely severed him at lumbar region.

He came home and researched, how his benefit would be paid out, v how it would be if he were alive.

And then he crawled to his barn and shot himself to death. He was 24.

BIL is 46 now. His elder sister, now 50, is a military academy grad, mother of 4, and high-ranking officer.

Do they see him as selfish? No. Neither does, but as a man, who was ill and aggrieved and didn't get the help he so desperately deserved.

And so many more now.

More have died of suicide than in battle. Are they all just selfish twats?

Why aren't we asking instead, why we didn't do more to support them?
Why are we still blaming and condemning those who take their lives as selfish?

Why aren't we asking instead, why we didn't do more to support them? Why are we still blaming and condemning those who take their lives as selfish?

Powerful words, Expat, and crucial.

I think part of the answer must be like the thought processes behind victim-blaming: If we condemn them as selfish, we don't have to think we might have supported them better. And if we condemn them, we can avoid facing the cruel facts of life, like it isn't fair or just, and there is no such thing as 'karma'.

Each of these little self-protective thought games leaves a vulnerable person a little more exposed ... We need our self-protections, yes, but surely we should draw the line at persecuting victims.

SP - In case you come back & see this - I am not meaning to poke your hurts; I can't sleep before posting this though! You said your mum's misery was triggered by something that happened to you. Happened to you: you didn't cause it, you didn't cause whatever happened to your mum beforehand, and you didn't cause her pain. Someone else did that - or two someones, if it's okay to assume these things were done to your mother and you by two individuals. It is horrible and it doesn't change the past. But it is certain that you did not cause her death.
to you, and I hope you're sleeping better than me tonight

So sorry expat...I can't even start to understand or imagine how it feels to lose a child.

I have lost a sentence at the start of that ... people do commit suicide for different reasons ....

I do think people do have to talk about these things - and to try and understand how depression makes one think and feel...

Why people do commit suicide - especially out of the blue when they seemed so cheerful...how well people can hide these feelings and why.
(If it wasn't for that GP - either her instinct or luck I wouldn't be here)

How it isn't anybodys 'fault'.

I was 24 ...and it seemed like my life was over...

And for anyone thinking about it - no matter how desperate their situation seems and how much they feel everyone will be better off without them to really think about the impact that it will have on others around them...

I said 'so for me' - it would be selfish of me - knowing what I do, with my experience..

By definition, a selfish person is ' chiefly concerned with one's own interest, advantage, etc., esp to the total exclusion of the interests of others'.

Someone who commits suicide cannot be defined in that way, as there is no advantage to committing suicide.

They are just ill.

I haven't read all of the posts and this is a very emotive subject. My mother accidentally committed suicide. She had a history of threatening suicide to get her own way, she wasn't a nice person btw quite controlling and narcissistic. I used to get all sorts of phone calls telling me she had taken overdoses etc that I needed to quit my job and go look after her (she was 49). TBH her GP, social services etc were just not interested because she was an alcoholic and occasionally aggressive and threatening. I had to go No contact with my mother (she was violent towards our family).

Apparently for a few years before her death she would take overdoses to get attention. She would end up in hospital getting the attention she craved from the medical staff. She even set fire to her flat. After she died the coroner told me she had taken a small overdose of paracetamol and alcohol, but not enough to kill a fit and healthy person. What my mother probably didn't realise is that she also had a rare bacterial infection in her gut that meant that her body just couldn't cope.

I left my ex because he threatened suicide as a way to control me, knowing what I had been through. He is still alive and kicking.

Is suicide selfish? it depends IMO, if you don't end up hurting/killing others when you do it then probably not.

But definitely there are some sick people out there who will threaten suicide to emotionally blackmail and that is selfish.

This is a very post, but there are some very brave people on here who have come back from dark times and managed to overcome the wish to end their life. I am enlightened by the feelings that you describe of what drove you the point of despair and how you felt going though those times.

It is the biggest question mark in my life about suicide, what can drive someone to that. Suicide took away my opportunity to have a relationship with my mother. i never even got to know my mother. My parents split up when I was 5 years old, my paternal grandparents bought me and my brother up until my father was able to take us back into his care. All that time I never had contact with my mother, she had a mental breakdown, left the country after she recovered and started a new life. I grew up accepting the fact I didnt have a mother and buried that whole chunk of my life so that it would not hurt me.

At the age of 34, 4 years after my father had died, I impulsively decided to find her, by contacting a family friend. Within days, I found out that she had committed suicide 9 years previously. I also found that I had a half brother, who is a wonderful, caring man, love him to bits, just as I do my brother. I havent shed a tear over my mother's death to this day. Not because I am a hard uncaring person, but because I was so detached from her that I never allowed myself to have any feelings for her. I dont fully understand to this day why she took her own life. Havent got a clue. I dont want to ask too much from my half brother for fear it will unearth bad memories that he has buried and I want his happiness more than I want to know stuff that really wont bring her back. Yes early on, after finding out about her suicide i wad angry, how could she do such a crazy thing when it seemed she had built that new life? It did seem that she was a selfish person (who could possibly walk away from her 2 children and not stay and fight for them?). Yes, I do know she had mental problem so thats probably why I havent spent my life tying myself in knots over her. I do wish I had tried to look for her sooner, but I am not arrogant enough to think I might have saved her life, I dont think I was important enough even to her, sadly. My poor half brother found her dead at the age of 13 and he has gone on to be a very successful man with a lovely wife and 3 children. He hasnt judged her, so how can I?

Each person's circumstances are different, but I dont think blame is a helpful thing to do. Its just devastating for families left behind. I guess I could say I was lucky to compartmentalise my mother's suicide because she was only a name to me, not a real person who I knew. If I think too closely, I would start to cry and never stop....

Also, just to mention, I did find out that my mother had made a couple of previous failed suicide attempts as a cry for attention and that it was highly likely she may not have meant to kill herself, even though she did finally succeed. She could have been trying to get attention, because she wasn't loved as a child (she came from a highly privileged family where money was a substitute for affection and attention). So sad, whatever the reason

I think that it's a selfish act but that the person was not intentionally being selfish. If somebody is that low and unhappy then they are not going to be thinking rationally. It's like with children, label the behaviour and not the child.

I don't think anyone contemplates suicide with their own selfish thoughts in mind, a large majority of people do so because as far as they are concerned, they are being unselfish, trying to save their family and friends the weight of their problems... Or because their life is so hopeless there is no point to them existing...

I understand why friends and family see it as selfish, but I can't imagine many scenarios when it is done with any selfish intent.

There are so many reasons and mindsets behind suicide that labelling the suicide as an entirely selfish act a ridiculous generalization.

and (((hugs))) to all who suffer loss and trauma through a suicide

I am beyond appalled that people who have no experience of suicidal loss see fit to post their views on such a subject. Even the most ignorant of people must see that ripping into the deepest emotions of others with gross generalisations would be offensive. Last time I looked I wasn't omniscient, and neither is anyone else.

I can see no valid reason for MN to pull this whole thread, which is a fucking shame. doesn't even begin to cover it for those who've been affected by this.

So much pain and sadness on this thread. So many unanswered questions. I think it's both desperately sad that so many people have been touched by suicide and humbling that you are prepared to share your thoughts and experiences of one of the last great taboos. It has been a difficult thread to read but on balance I think it has been a good thing, not just because we need to remove the stigma around mental illness but also because I hope that those of you who are still in that dark bleak place can see that you are not alone, that help is out there, that people care and that your lives are important. There are one or two people on this thread struggling for empathy but the majority of posts are compassionate and understanding.

My DH has treatment-resistant bipolar with a double depressive element. He has made two suicide attempts in the 20-odd years since his diagnosis. We have talked about it afterwards and he has tried to explain the motivation behind it.

He describes it has having no hope that things will change or improve. Can you imagine what it must be like to live utterly without hope? I can't.

He says he just wants to stop thinking. He can't bear his thoughts going round and round in the same patterns, being trapped inside his head with constant, never-ending thoughts of self-loathing. He thinks he's useless. He thinks he's a burden. He thinks if he wasn't around I could find happiness with someone who "deserves" me. He thinks he sucks all the joy out of life. He is utterly exhausted.

If I could bring myself to be the better person, I would let him go with my blessing. How can I ask him to carry on this soul-destroying existence for my sake? But I do. I beg him to stay. I tell him, truthfully, that I adore him and I can't imagine life without him. I try to convince him that my life is better for having him in it. I truly believe it is. He doesn't. But he's still here. For now. For me.

He's not the selfish one. I am.

Tbh - I don't think all suicidal people are Ill.

But NandH - how do you know he wasn't ill? Strangely you can't tell someone is mentally ill just by looking at them, or even by talking to them. How nice his dad is doesn't have a great deal of impact either!

I very much doubt anyone who was 'thinking straight' would decide to kill themselves!

Morning everyone.
I have read this thread with interest and sadness. I really do hope I haven't offended anyone with my view that people who have committed suicide are selfish. I wasn't meaning to put everyone into that box. I understand why people who are mentally ill may want to do it. I can see how calling someone selfish is terribly upsetting. It is only what my FIL and I were discussing the other night.

Still, at this moment in time, this is how I and some members of my family feel. It has only been 5 weeks. We are probably going through the anger stage of grief. No-one - not a soul knew how my BIL felt. He was at work all day. Just come back from a holiday in Marbella with a load of friends. He and my DH were texting that afternoon about some x box games. He'd organized meetings for the next day.

But he went home. Got changed. Fed his cat. Filled a rucksack with weights. Drove into town. Walked to the river. Wasn't found for 6 days.

The aftermath we are dealing with is horrendous. My MIL has lost her baby boy. DH is dealing with his brothers death - badly - but having to deal with solicitors, BIL's place of employment, his house. BIL wasn't married or had children.

We are all blaming ourselves. No-one in his family - or over 100 friends at his funeral - had a clue how he felt. He left no note.

Who are we all to judge? No-one knows how a someone who has committed suicide felt.

Sorry for my ramblings. I had surgery yesterday and was a bit wooooo from tramadol and codeine so I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Truly.

Still woooo from codeine today. But I still want my BIL back.

I'm so sorry for everyone's losses. Lots of love to you all xxxx

It is a selfish act, that does not mean that person is a selfish person tho.

My grandad committed suicide before I was born and my 14 year old aunt found him. I often wondered how he could have done it to my granny and my mum and siblings.
I just think living must have been unbearable. If you've ever experienced distressing thoughts you can't get away from, where you feel awful, in pain, imagine being assailed by them x1000 and not being able to escape.

When my brother attempted suicide the second time (and v nearly died) and was on life support machines , the lot, truly awful, my Mum said that she truly didn't know what she wished for him - to live or die. Because although she desperately wanted him to live for her sake (and he is still alive, although still v ill) she knew what terrible pain he was in and had been in for so long. Depression is a truly awful thing, you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy. What right do we have, really, to ask someone to live in indescribable emotional pain, just so that we , the family and friends, feel better?

Likewise my lovely friend whose son committed suicide at 19, despite her terrible and indescribable loss and pain, still believes that ultimately it was his life to choose to do with as he wished. She knows how hard life was for him and although she wants him back, of course, she wouldn't have wanted him to have to live in such torment any more.