to wonder about the definition of rape

[Justforlaughs]

Partly inspired by the thread about rape being common, I was wondering what people class as rape. Two examples, that I would be interested in your views on. Would either/ both of these class as rape or not.

1. Girl goes to stay at friends house, gets drunk. Friend goes to bed. Girl goes to bathroom, friends DP comes in and wants to have sex. Girl doesn't want to but being very drunk doesn't want to wake her friend up so doesn't scream or fight, just says no repeatedly. She does mean, no, but they have sex anyway.

2)Girl goes to a house party, gets drunk. Goes to bed with her boyfriend and passes out. Wakes up in the same bed, no sign of boyfriend but there are 3 other boys/ men in the bed with her. They say that they all had sex with her when she was out cold. She doesn't remember anything, but they say that she didn't protest.

So what does the mumsnet jury think?

I'm not at all.

I'm finding it very hard to understand your pov due to what I see as constant contradictions.

You have had training in self protection and you say that you are proud you have successfully prevented rape in the past. Yet you are white with rage that anyone could suggest there may be effective risk-preventative measures.

I am simply asking for clarification.

because it's not one size fits all. A list of rules is less than useless because it interferes with the only piece of advice that may possibly have any merit -'Listen to your instinct. do what you need to do. Survival is probaby all you can hope for'

Binks do you think it would help you to talk about what happened?

I was exasperated (not enraged, don't flatter yourself) that you told Cailin freezing & crying were not resistance strategies. I have explained that every situation is different, I have more personal experience than I'd like, and agreed with Cailin that submissive behaviour can be the most effective way to resist attack.

I also explained that my self-defence teacher elaborated on this theme.

It certainly can be protective. And it's true that all the conjecture after it's already happened mostly only serves to be upsetting. But. I do think it's important to know that your own feelings are paramount and to feel free to scream in someone's face if they bother you in the slightest. It sounds crazy, but I was genuinely concerned about upsetting him or hurting his feelings! If only I'd have had a phrase to shout instead of trying to kindly extricate myself from the situation.

I did try saying no, but that didn't work. It should have done. But what if I'd shouted, or kicked, or used some of the self defense I've learned? The trouble is that I just wasn't expecting to have to do it.

To be fair garlic i think wires have been crossed wrt the freezing and crying thing. In the context no was actually a sensible answer to that question.

I always thought I'd run and scream - or kick, maybe, if it happened to me. In the event I did neither, I couldn't run, my legs went to lead - I couldn't move I was so scared, and I couldn't scream, my throat tightened up. I was immobilised - I have nightmares about that feeling of paralysis. If I'd had all the self defence training in the world it wouldn't have helped me, I couldn't make my body work - do the things I thought I should do.
I hate talk of preventative measures - it gives both a sense of false security and the implication that if you don't take preventative measures you are in some way to blame. I also can't see how preventative measures could help with someone you know / trust - as is the case with the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults.

KK. May as well leave this again now.

Apologies for crossing wires with you, Gangster. It would have been nice if you'd told me I misunderstood.

"If only I'd have had a phrase to shout" ... The recommended ones are "FIRE!" or "Get off, you're raping me!"

... and I'm not saying either of those will magically stop rapists trying to rape! It's just that some have re-framed their crime to themselves and can be brought back down with the shout. Only some, though. Others would just get cross.

The thing about all the advice about fighting/shouting is that it all relates to stranger rape which is by far the rarest type. Rapists usually get to know their victim even marry them and that situation where you know and trust and even love your rapist is a much different matter. The research completely ignores this type of rape even though 90% of rapes fall into this category. Why is that?

The research I linked covers all rapes, not just stranger rapes.

Nice guys don't rape Cailin. They might get a bit carried away or confused by grey areas.

Of course we condemn real rape, by real alley dwelling rapists. Heinous.

• The advice in the research I linked, I should say.

The research does go on to say that "future research is needed to explore the question of whether such resistance strategies are equally effective for sexual assaults committed by a stranger, acquaintance, or intimate partner. However, it is reasonable to speculate that acknowledging a situation as dangerous is more difficult when the perpetrator is someone the victim knows or shares an intimate relationship with."

That said, since a passive response (i.e. freezing) was found to be ineffective across all rapes, the question is what kind of physical or forceful verbal response works best in what situation.

For God's sake - passivity may be ineffective but you don't always have a choice over what response you give. Fear leads to physiological changes in the body - including freezing and passivity. That research is seriously unhelpful as it is leaving out the fact that this is not a scientific experiment, its real life. It suggests you have choice in these situations - and you often don't.
It should also explain that many rapes occur in domestic abuse situations and forceful responses are most likely to leads to serious physical assaults.

Suelford my big problem with the research was the fact that freezing was called a "resistance strategy." It is a natural response to fear, not a strategy. Saying "you shouldn't freeze as it's ineffective" is totally bonkers you might as well say "if someone blows powder in your face don't sneeze." It just isn't bloody helpful at all.

Plus as I already said, who's to know if freezing actually protected victims from injury or death?

What's a real rape?

Was my rape just a grey area then?

Grumpy if that post is directed at me, I was being sarky. Sorry if I wasn't clear, didn't mean to anoy anyone on an emotive topic.

You hear that bs all the time by people who prefer not to think about what Sex without Consent really means.

I like how Captain Obvious over here keeps saying "Lying still and doing nothing won't prevent rape being completed". No shit sherlock!

Sue, that research only records what responses each woman had to her rapist and the reaction each rapist had to each response. There is NO WAY to judge whether the response each woman gave would have worked on a different rapist. This makes it completely useless in preventing "rape completion" (as if an incomplete rape is any less traumatic. Been there...)

How do you suggest this research is carried out? would you like to canvas rapists as to what would have stopped them? Perhaps you would like to experiment yourself and try different responses when you get raped next. Please come back and report...

All you are contributing to this thread is a perpetuation of the "you could have prevented it" Myth. I think you should go away now before I break talk guidelines and say something less restrained.

I am defending the theory of defence. It isn't useless. It isn't necessarily useful, but it is important to talk about these things! I think shouting fire or something could have helped me. I think that feeling empowered to shout at all could have helped me.

And I don't get the impression from anyone that they blame me for what happened because I didn't do those things.

Wll that goes back to what I (and a lot of people) said earlier - trust your instincts. Which sounds easy but isn't. There is Politeness and Not Wanting To Cause A Fuss, to name but two, which can argue against your instincts. There are a lot of voices competing in our heads. Adding an official Approved Response to that will only obscure your true assesment of the situation even more.

One thing that won't fail you is your survival instinct. It's incredibly strong. It might tell you not to fight to just "let" it happen in order to live. Anything you do to survive is the right thing.