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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to wonder about the definition of rape

243 replies

Justforlaughs · 09/08/2013 16:25

Partly inspired by the thread about rape being common, I was wondering what people class as rape. Two examples, that I would be interested in your views on. Would either/ both of these class as rape or not.

  1. Girl goes to stay at friends house, gets drunk. Friend goes to bed. Girl goes to bathroom, friends DP comes in and wants to have sex. Girl doesn't want to but being very drunk doesn't want to wake her friend up so doesn't scream or fight, just says no repeatedly. She does mean, no, but they have sex anyway.

2)Girl goes to a house party, gets drunk. Goes to bed with her boyfriend and passes out. Wakes up in the same bed, no sign of boyfriend but there are 3 other boys/ men in the bed with her. They say that they all had sex with her when she was out cold. She doesn't remember anything, but they say that she didn't protest.

So what does the mumsnet jury think?

OP posts:
PrettyKitty1986 · 10/08/2013 19:34

So do some think that advice by organisations such as RAINN is...what? Wrong? Inappropriate? Insulting?

Should we offer no safety advice for women at all in case it is seen by some as 'victim blaming'?

CailinDana · 10/08/2013 19:41

The point kitty is that that advice doesn't really prevent rape, it just restricts women's freedom. 9% of rapes are by strangers. Of that number some happen in broad daylight, some happen in a workplace, some happen at night. Staying in a group might decrease your risk of rape by a tiny amount.

500DaysofSummer · 10/08/2013 19:46

Thanks sinister and cailin I'm ok but the subject still makes me shudder, particuarly when I hear people saying the same old myths.

The utter violation and a womans body and basic rights are absolutely NOT comparable to someones car being nicked.

I imagine any woman who's been raped will always have a tiny bit in the back of her head that will think 'what if', even though she shouldn't and shouldn't have to.

Which is why the suggestion should never be made.

I've heard all the crap over the years.

The minute you start placing the responsibility onto the victim, well where does it stop? There are bad people out there and they will find a way. The only hope I think we have is a complete re education (is that even a word?) for society. But as that will never happen it's far easier to just blame women.

grumpyoldbat · 10/08/2013 19:48

Perhaps it's something to do with having to justify ourselves any time we admit to having been raped. As soon as you admit it it why did you or why didn't you. So you have to explain what you did or didn't do, you have to try and prove what you know is the truth. It's pointless though because people don't want the truth they don't like it they want to believe the rape myths they have to believe it was your fault.

It adds to the pain, it helps the rapist have another victory by destroying another bit of you.

Want to know how much I'd had to drink, what I was wearing, how many consensual partners I've had? Of course you don't because you won't like the answer because it doesn't fit what you want to believe because it's easier to think badly of the victim than it is to think badly of the rapist.

500DaysofSummer · 10/08/2013 19:50

No prettykitty

But most people aren't fecking stupid, most people have a good awareness of personal safety, most people don't deliberately go out putting themselves into the firing line of potential danger.

All these women that are supposedly wandering the streets pissed at 3am, well it's a minority of people and a minority of those who will be raped. And even if they are, it still isn't their fault.

But all the safety advice and careful planning in the world will not prevent rape. Because most rapes aren't carried out like that.

CailinDana · 10/08/2013 19:51

It doesn't make sense to emphasise what women can do to prevent stranger rape when stranger rape is so rare. And even then there are so many factors involved in stranger rape it's impossible to cover them all.

ConstantCraving · 10/08/2013 19:51

The 'safety advice' should be offered to men, ss someone said up-thread:
If you find yourself in the same room as a woman who is falling over drunk - don't rape her.
If you find yourself in a room with a woman who is asleep - don't rape her
If you're going out for the night make sure you take buddies with you to stop you from raping someone.
Etc, etc.

500DaysofSummer · 10/08/2013 19:54

I don't know why some people are determined to get a bee in their bonnet and harp on about women protecting themselves.

And that isn't directed at anyone here or anyone in particular, it's just something I hear often in these type of discussions.

It's as though it's just easier to bang on about all these supposed clueless women than face the real issue.

CailinDana · 10/08/2013 19:58

I think it happens 500 because people like to think they can make themselves safe. It's understandable but naive.

Spikeytree · 10/08/2013 19:59

I was raped by a stranger. I was 17 and did literally get dragged into an alley, threatened with a knife and beaten.

I have always blamed myself.

grumpyoldbat · 10/08/2013 20:03

That is exactly it 500, it's also about kidding themselves that it's impossible for them or a loved one to be raped. Sadly it's not.

grumpyoldbat · 10/08/2013 20:05

Please don't spikey there are enough twats who'll do it for you. It wasn't your fault it was the rapist's

CailinDana · 10/08/2013 20:08

Spikey why do you blame yourself?

PrettyKitty1986 · 10/08/2013 20:09

s also about kidding themselves that it's impossible for them or a loved one to be raped. Sadly it's not.

Sorry, but that is riduculous. I am not trying to kid myself into believing it could never happen to me at all.

I think basic safety advice is sensible.

There is a women's self-defence class that runs in a nearby area. Is this just an insult? Alluding to the fact that any woman who would need to use the skills taught would have been to blame for the entire situation?

Of course not. It's just sensible skills and hopefully a measure that could protect you to an extent if you ever found yourself in a rare but awful situation. It is not an indicator of guilt on the woman's behalf.

Spikeytree · 10/08/2013 20:21

I blame myself because it was clear this was what others thought. To be honest I would never have reported it if I hadn't been unconscious when found. Rationally I know that it was his fault, but deep down I think I'll always blame myself.

I have struggled with what happened to me for 16 years. I have PTSD and can't talk about it in RL.

I feel contaminated and like a horrible person. It has fucked up my mental health and I have never even had a relationship since and never will.

I don't need people telling me it was my fault because I didn't take enough precautions, I tell myself that every day anyway.

Not sure why I came on this thread, they are always triggering and I just ramble anyway. Sorry.

SinisterSal · 10/08/2013 20:29

But do you get where we are coming from PrettyKitty?

SinisterSal · 10/08/2013 20:30

God Spikeytree that is just so awful. i am sorry for what that bastard did to you and what you have to live with since. It is shit

grumpyoldbat · 10/08/2013 20:30

spikey hide the thread if you need to. He is the horrible one not you.

So that's it kitty I wasn't skilful enough when I tried to fight back? That's Ok then I obviously deserve.

Do you know what people can blame all they want, say it's my fault. It doesn't change the truth an I know the truth.

SinisterSal · 10/08/2013 20:31

And don't say 'Sorry' to us! You have nothing to be sorry for.

I will say sorry for multiple posts though - that is fair enough

PrettyKitty1986 · 10/08/2013 20:40

Not really Sinister.

To me it seems like some people are equating personal safety advice to victim blaming. The two are separate issues. I can support self defence and safety advice for women without believing that the victims of rape are in any way to blame.

SinisterSal · 10/08/2013 20:42

Haven't any of the stories you've read on this thread show how the two are conflated? We all know they are two seperate issues but that's not how it ever comes across. It is very insensitive to be going on saying I'm right when people are telling you to your face what it is like to be on the other side of the fence.

PrettyKitty1986 · 10/08/2013 20:43

So that's it kitty I wasn't skilful enough when I tried to fight back? That's Ok then I obviously deserve

This is a perfect example of the twisting of words which goes on on this sort of thread. I feel badly for you and your situation, I really do grumpy. But those are your words, not mine. Don't try to draw out a meaning that was not there.

CailinDana · 10/08/2013 20:43

Ok prettykitty. We understand your viewpoint.

grumpyoldbat · 10/08/2013 20:47

kitty you need to seriously consider the concept of FALSE sense of security.

THE SAFETY PRECAUTIONS BEING SUGGESTED OFFER NO PROTECTION AGAINST BEING RAPED.

PrettyKitty1986 · 10/08/2013 20:52

There is never a complete protection against rape. You can never completely protect yourself against any crime.

Most of the suggestions are common sense. To remove them would be pointless. I'm sorry but I really can't see the issue.