to wonder about the definition of rape

[Justforlaughs]

Partly inspired by the thread about rape being common, I was wondering what people class as rape. Two examples, that I would be interested in your views on. Would either/ both of these class as rape or not.

1. Girl goes to stay at friends house, gets drunk. Friend goes to bed. Girl goes to bathroom, friends DP comes in and wants to have sex. Girl doesn't want to but being very drunk doesn't want to wake her friend up so doesn't scream or fight, just says no repeatedly. She does mean, no, but they have sex anyway.

2)Girl goes to a house party, gets drunk. Goes to bed with her boyfriend and passes out. Wakes up in the same bed, no sign of boyfriend but there are 3 other boys/ men in the bed with her. They say that they all had sex with her when she was out cold. She doesn't remember anything, but they say that she didn't protest.

So what does the mumsnet jury think?

What utter shits those men are. Bastards.
Did people at the time tell you these situations weren't rape??

It is odd how it is much easier to see rape when it happens to someone else, but that if it happens to oneself somehow self blame kicks in. I am glad if MN has helped you to see the true situation. I am glad you say you are fine now. Perhaps accepting that you had no blame is the next step in moving on.

Both are clearly rape. If you do not,cannot or are in a compromised state of mind it is rape. If in the middle of sex a woman changes her mind and says no/stop and the man carries on its rape. If a woman says nothing through fear and shock and a man carries on,it is rape.

I apologise as I need to run now but would love to give you more support as I suspect this is an important thread for you. I will check back in tomorrow but I am glad you have some lovely supportive posters to talk to.

I second the comment about drinking - that does NOT in any way, shape or form make you responsible for what those men did to you.

X post,I'm sorry that this happened to you and neither is your fault nor is there blame on your behalf.

Last point: you might want to ask for this thread to be moved away from AIBU as you will get even more support elsewhere. AIBU can be a little, um, robust.

I am so sorry both happened to you, OP. Both were most definitely rape, and neither were your fault in any way, shape or form.

All of those men deserve certain things to happen to them

If it still affects you in some way, please go for counselling. It really helped me, both to get past it and to realize it wasn't my fault.

Thanks voiceofraisin I'm thinking I should have namechanged for this one, but there you go! We can't think of everything! I am feeling really quite vindicated actually, so thank you everyone. (Still think that I could have avoided it all, if I hadn't drunk so much though)

It was rape. Both times. I'm sorry if this is hard to read, but you have been raped.

If you need some help or support to process this, you can still access it, it doesn't matter how long ago it was. And I don't give a shiny shit if you still drink or not - drink was not a factor in these situations. You were raped because these men wanted to rape you, not because you were drunk.

Booze doesn't rape people. Only rapists rape.

How do you feel now? Do you think you would like to talk to someone about it?

I had a similar experience to one of yours and it took me years and years to recognise it was rape, and quite a bitof ccounselling to accept that it wasn't my fault. It was well worth doing for me. If you would like to talk more do pm me.

Perhaps you could have avoided it by not drinking but, because you were drunk (which is not illegal) you were clearly unable to give consent to sex. The men in each scenario were, presumably, not drunk but chose to rape you (which is illegal).

Who told you it wasn't rape?

Sweetheart, in situation 1 if you had been sober then he probably would have tried it the next time you were drunk, or the next time, or the next time. Because he is a rapist scum.

Granted in situation 2, you not being sober might have meant they chose someone else. Equally it could have meant you sustained a beating as well as being raped. Because they were rapist scum.

What happened isn't your fault.

I did once go to a counselor but I didn't think it helped, so didn't go back. She wasn't really bothered and seemed to accept that it was my own fault anyway. Tbh, I've never even told my DH (of nearly 20 years) about it. Something happened recently that brought it all back and then I saw the other thread, so I thought I'd ask what you lovely lot thought.

I'm going to go now, and will check in later. But my DCs are around and you are making me cry with your "it wasn't your fault"

I am so sorry this happened to you OP. I am disgusted with your counsellors reaction. Fwiw my mother's reaction to my boyfriend raping me was 'Oh but I still like him, he is such a naice boy', you are not alone. Both are absofuckinglutely rape. xxx Inbox me if you want to chat :)

So u were drunk thats no excuse for those pigs. If id been u I would have have thought I was in a safe place to be drunk iykwim. First u were sleeping with your boyfriend and second u were at a friends house there is no way u could ever predict the awful thing that happened to u

What a shame you had a useless counsellor. Unfortunately there are lots of those. But there are goodoones too and you may want to give it another go. Mine took a psychodynamic approach and is BACP accredited. It was expensive as I went for a year and a half but I now know I deserve it! Wishing you the best.

Reading your posts brought a tear to my eye! Oh lovely, it was NOT your fault in any way shape or form. They are rapist scum and would of found a way one way or another, or waited until another time. Do not blame yourself!

I really wish I could give you a hug right now...

You being drunk did not make them put their penis inside you. Please believe that. You have the right to be as drunk as you like and not be raped.

Just to add to what others have said. Neither of these attacks were your fault whatsoever, and they certainly were rape. Bless you OP, I hope that posting here will help you to begin to heal from the awful things that were done to you.

Two things, 1) if I've outed myself and you know me in real life, just because I've put this on here does not mean that I want to talk about it to you (in the nicest possible way)
2) if I let a traveling tree surgeon into my house (to use electricity, say) and left him there while I went to work and he stole my tv, you'd all say it was my own fault, or I was daft, or imply that I made a bad choice that somehow resulted in a criminal taking advantage. Similarly, if I left a young child in a hotel room while I had a drink and someone broke in and attacked them/ abducted them, you would all feel that I had failed as a parent, despite the fact that it was the perpetrator who was really in the wrong. Why is it any different with rape? I'm not trying to shift blame from the perpetrator, just trying to work out why the victim shouldn't take any responsibility for putting themselves into a situation where a criminal can take advantage of their vulnerability.

Actually, if someone is a victim of a crime then they should get nothing but sympathy and support, not blame. I know sometimes people blame the victim for thoughtless actions, but they are still the victim, not the perpetrator.

A thief causes your TV to he stolen, even if you did let them in, a rapist causes rape, no matter what you drank.

If you'd been at a party with non-rapists there you could have drunk yourself stupid and danced naked on the tables without being raped. It was not your actions that caused this, not even a little bit. Decent people and friends would have let you sleep off the drink, helped clear up if you were sick and given you plenty of water in the morning. Only a rapist would take advantage of the situation and rape you.

It was not your fault. Not even a little bit.

2) if I let a traveling tree surgeon into my house (to use electricity, say) and left him there while I went to work and he stole my tv, you'd all say it was my own fault, or I was daft, or imply that I made a bad choice that somehow resulted in a criminal taking advantage. Similarly, if I left a young child in a hotel room while I had a drink and someone broke in and attacked them/ abducted them, you would all feel that I had failed as a parent, despite the fact that it was the perpetrator who was really in the wrong. Why is it any different with rape? I'm not trying to shift blame from the perpetrator, just trying to work out why the victim shouldn't take any responsibility for putting themselves into a situation where a criminal can take advantage of their vulnerability.

First of all, you would have to accept some fault for leaving a total stranger in your home who you don't know whether they can be trusted or not.

Second one, of course you would also need to accept fault because it involves a child. A child that should never of been left alone to begin with!

OP, in both of your situations, you were an adult who is perfectly entitled to have a drink without being taken advantage of (how many adults drink on a daily basis who don't get attacked? It wasn't the drink that caused it, it was the men!) And also, you were at a place were you thought you could trust people. That is not your fault.

A thief causes your TV to he stolen, even if you did let them in, a rapist causes rape, no matter what you drank.

Exactly this.

There are two separate things at play:
the cause/act/event - theft or rape.
contributing factors that increase the likelihood of these things happening.

Leaving your house unlocked and unattended increases the risk of burglary; walking alone in a dodgy area increases the chances of an attack (mugging, rape); walking alone in a dodgy area at night further increases the risk. Staying away from dodgy areas reduces the risk of being the victim of an attack.

So yes, we can influence the chances to some degree, but a theft is always committed by a thief, and a rape is always committed by a rapist - never by the victim.

The reason so many attackers are known to their victims is that our own internal risk analysis is on low alert with people we know/trust.

In my experience, trying to blame yourself is about taking control of the situation. As in, thinking of ways you could have prevented it and how you can avoid it happening again. It's a survival mechanism. Your brain is running over the situation to think of how to stop it from repeating, because it was traumatic and upsetting for you.

That doesn't mean your ideas are right or that it's your fault. It only means that it's normal to try to think your way out of things.