to wonder about the definition of rape

[Justforlaughs]

Partly inspired by the thread about rape being common, I was wondering what people class as rape. Two examples, that I would be interested in your views on. Would either/ both of these class as rape or not.

1. Girl goes to stay at friends house, gets drunk. Friend goes to bed. Girl goes to bathroom, friends DP comes in and wants to have sex. Girl doesn't want to but being very drunk doesn't want to wake her friend up so doesn't scream or fight, just says no repeatedly. She does mean, no, but they have sex anyway.

2)Girl goes to a house party, gets drunk. Goes to bed with her boyfriend and passes out. Wakes up in the same bed, no sign of boyfriend but there are 3 other boys/ men in the bed with her. They say that they all had sex with her when she was out cold. She doesn't remember anything, but they say that she didn't protest.

So what does the mumsnet jury think?

cailen is right. With some rapists the best you can hope for is being alive at the end of it.

What I don't understand is this resolute belief that there are Strategies and Things You Can Do that will help. You really don't know that. None of us know how we'd react in that situation until it happens. I like to think I would scream blue murder and fight like a motherfucker. But would I? I hope to god I never get to find out.

The 'research' is utterly pointless, as they have no idea what 'strategies' women who didn't survive used.

Suelford quoted me in order to get her unhelpful, victim-blaming stuff in, so let me amend what she took from me to simply read:

"The stark truth is, women get raped (and men too,yes) because men decide to rape". That is the be all and end all of the matter.

Spikey, you can't stop me sending you kind thoughts, sorry. Because I KNOW you were 100% NOT TO BLAME for what happened to you, and so does virtually everyone here (and the others need their heads examining, so you can discount their personal issues). You can't stop us knowing you did nothing to deserve to be raped or to 'let' it happen, and you can't stop us caring about you, okay?

Here's a way to look at it. Rape is about power. Some rapist will therefore select a victim who appears to be weak, won't fight back etc so to defend against them you should be confident and strong to avoid being selected and fight back if you have to stop them.

However other rapists feel powerful by selecting women who seem confident and powerful who in their twisted mind needs 'taking down a peg or 2'. Fighting back encourages this kind of rapist and being meek may not stop the rape it increases your chance of being murdered or at least be less beaten up.

This is why how to avoid being raped lists are pointless. The action that could possibly (if you're lucky) offer some protection from one rapist would make you more of a target for another.

"This is why how to avoid being raped lists are pointless. The action that could possibly (if you're lucky) offer some protection from one rapist would make you more of a target for another."

On an individual level, yes, the tips may not be useful against a particular rapist. But for women as a group, using the tips will increase the number of avoided rapes:

"Evidence suggests that women's participation in risk reduction programs- particularly those including self-defense training- decreases their likelihood of being sexually assaulted in the future (for reviews, see Hanson & Broom, 2005; Ullman, 2007; see also more recent research by Orchowski, Gidycz, & Raffle, 2008). To illustrate, meta-analysis was conducted to explore the outcomes of five risk reduction programs for college women, with data combined from all five studies to increase the sample size and statistical power. The authors concluded that: ""Of the 918 women in the treatment groups, 20.3% reported being sexually victimized during follow-up compared to 24.5% among the 868 women in the control groups - a reduction of four sexual assaults for every 100 women attending the program"" (Hanson & Broom, 2005, p. 366)."

I don't know why in quoting from that literature review you didn't use this quote:

"true prevention can only take place by changing the behavior of men as the primary perpetrators of sexual assault"

Does the research say whether those numbers included women who had averted an attempted rape? Or was it just a record of who had happened to be assaulted during a certain period?

nooka Because we weren't discussing prevention, but risk mitigation.

Eh isn't prevention a form of risk mitigation?

I'm still a cynic. The follow up by definition has to be a limited period time so doesn't give an indication of lifetime risk. I also calculate the p value (based on figures quoted) as 0.05 so can only just be considered statistically significant. I'd also like more information on how the women were selected and allocated to their groups.

The figures the review quotes seems to be from Hanson, R.K. & Broom, I. (2005) "The utility of cumulative meta-analyses: Application to programs
for reducing sexual violence. Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment", 17(4), 357-373., but I can't find a publically accessible copy. They do say that most programs and studies are based on college students.

College students aren't really representative of all women are they? It could be possible that the rapists that college students have the misfortune to encounter are of certain type. Doesn't say if that has been looked at. College students are less likely to have ex husbands for example.

Cailin Prevention, at least in the way the review uses it, means getting perpetrators to stop raping, and risk mitigation is helping victims/potential victims reduce their risk of being raped. They're aimed at different groups.

There's definitely an interesting discussion to be had about rape prevention, but as the review states, it boils down to rapists having to stop raping. There is a section in the review about this, saying that there have been a small number of successful programs that "demonstrated success in changing men's beliefs and attitudes regarding rape", "reduced men's self-reported likelihood to rape", and "might reduce men's actual sexual aggression".

The problem with all these 'rape prevention' tips is not only that it puts the onus on women to prevent rape - rather than men not to rape. Which is wrong imo. It is that to follow 'rape prevention' tips is extremely restricting to the lives and freedoms of women.

So 'don't walk home alone after dark'. In winter, the dark starts at 5pm - so women shouldn't travel home from work alone? What about women on night shifts? Why just in the dark - stranger rapes take place in day light too - so should I not walk my dog alone in the woods? In the event of a rape - this 'advice' quickly becomes turned around in people's minds: "well, what was she doing going home in the dark on her own? What did she expect?' IME these are common questions about rape cases and very damaging to the victims.

Take Ched Evans case - my own mother - who is a very enlightened woman in general - said "well, what did she think was going to happen going up in that hotel room?" I answered - well, maybe for him not to text his mate, and for his mate (Evans) to come and join in? And that's notwithstanding that just going to a hotel room =/= consent for any sexual act.

OP - yes without a single doubt, what you describe was rape. Spikeytree, and others who shared their story - no it wasn't your fault. The fact that those around you made you feel you weren't raped/it was your fault is down to the rape culture prevalent in our society. See the thread on rape culture in FWR - rape culture is not saying every man is a rapist - it is allowing and excusing rapists, including victim blaming, as evident by some posters here.

I applaud the many women on this thread who are recounting personal experiences in order to illuminate the subject and help others. You are all very brave. Spikeytree you too are brave! Please, please, please seek some counselling so that you can accept that what happened to you was not in any way, shape or form your fault.

"Freezing" is not a strategy but a physiological response to a life threatening situation. To call it an "ineffective strategy" is to warp words in such a way as to appear to victim blame. That has to be a bad thing, especially on this thread and especially when there is enough victim blaming already in rape cases.

Rape avoidance advice is life limiting and fairly useless if it is basically "don't go out alone". We live in the modern world where we do not have chaperones and in any case most rapes (seemingly 91%) are committed by that boy who walks you home, or the cab driver, or your stepfather or some other male acquaintance who takes a chance that you won't be believed.

StuntGirl Absofuckinglutly.