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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder about the definition of rape

243 replies

Justforlaughs · 09/08/2013 16:25

Partly inspired by the thread about rape being common, I was wondering what people class as rape. Two examples, that I would be interested in your views on. Would either/ both of these class as rape or not.

  1. Girl goes to stay at friends house, gets drunk. Friend goes to bed. Girl goes to bathroom, friends DP comes in and wants to have sex. Girl doesn't want to but being very drunk doesn't want to wake her friend up so doesn't scream or fight, just says no repeatedly. She does mean, no, but they have sex anyway.

2)Girl goes to a house party, gets drunk. Goes to bed with her boyfriend and passes out. Wakes up in the same bed, no sign of boyfriend but there are 3 other boys/ men in the bed with her. They say that they all had sex with her when she was out cold. She doesn't remember anything, but they say that she didn't protest.

So what does the mumsnet jury think?

OP posts:
grumpyoldbat · 10/08/2013 20:54

I'm sorry you can't get it too.

Vivacia · 10/08/2013 20:54

I'm sorry but I really can't see the issue.

What do you think of the issue that whilst not protecting women from rape they limit women's freedom?

CailinDana · 10/08/2013 20:59

I know my words probably mean very little spikey but you were not to blame. It was not your fault.

PrettyKitty1986 · 10/08/2013 21:01

Most are things which I would do/not do anyway really. I've never felt that they are restricting my freedom particularly.

Vivacia · 10/08/2013 21:07

I've never felt that they are restricting my freedom particularly.

Well, that's good for you. But taking a look at the list you refer to, I would find it pretty limiting to avoid isolated areas (i.e. walk the dogs three times a day); avoid loading myself down (i.e. do the food shop on my own); avoid being with someone I don't know (i.e. most of the time I work or use public transport)...

PrettyKitty1986 · 10/08/2013 21:11

So don't follow them all. It is a suggested list of possible safety tips. There is obviously a balance that needs to be achieved between trying to minimise risk and not impeding your life too much. No one has said that to stay safe you must religiously follow all points.

RinseAndRepeat · 10/08/2013 21:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CailinDana · 10/08/2013 21:18

How do you choose which ones to follow kitty?

Spikeytree · 10/08/2013 21:22

I think some posts on this thread show why I have a hard time believing that it wasn't my own fault.

When he held a knife to my throat I let him do whatever he wanted. I went some place else in my head and let him rape me. I didn't scream, kick, hit, bite or anything else that I might have thought I'd have done. Ironically I wanted to live. Now everyday I want to die and I so so wish I had done something to stop him because he may have killed me then and it would have been better.

Blistory · 10/08/2013 21:26

"there is never a complete protection against rape"

Yes, there is but it's not the done thing to point it out. Teach men not to rape, banish the current rape culture, punish men who do rape. Teach your sons that girls are their equals, teach your sons not to rape, teach your sons not to protect their friends who do rape. Stop promoting rape myths. Stop victim blaming.

Women get raped for one reason alone - because a rapist believes he has the right to do so.

CailinDana · 10/08/2013 21:27

Spikey :(

SinisterSal · 10/08/2013 21:28

Oh SpikeyTree I am so sorry he has done this to you. You did not deserve it. It was NOT your fault. How could it be? life is the last thing any of us has, we'd give up anything else to keep it. It's natural.

So angry on your behalf

Blistory · 10/08/2013 21:31

Spiky. You did what you had to do to survive. And you did survive. And you continue to do so. Now you need to learn to live. Please don't punish yourself anymore. He isn't worth your life.

Spikeytree · 10/08/2013 21:33

Sorry, I've hijacked this thread.

Going to step away from MN for a bit, between this and the suicide thread AIBU? is a bit too raw for me today.

SinisterSal · 10/08/2013 21:34

Mind yourself Spikey

CailinDana · 10/08/2013 21:48

Spikey there are people here who understand and who are on your side. Are you feeling suicidal?

WMittens · 10/08/2013 22:08

Iamsparklyknickers
Something like leaving a door open is an open invitation or some such. I presume it's a mix of insurance lines, squatters laws...

An insurance contract requires 'forcible and violent entry' in order for a theft claim to be paid out; it has nothing to say about anyone being allowed into your house, that is a completely separate issue.

OxfordBags · 11/08/2013 00:33

Spikey, sweetheart, when someone has a knife to your throat, there is no 'letting' about the scenario. If it gives you even the tiniest crumb of comfort, please know that it is well documented that the body's natural defence mechanism to threat is to shut down and become a blank canvas for what is being done to it when it is clear that there is no escape. This is because it is also very well-documented that the more you struggle, fight, protest, etc., when being raped, the more the rapist will escalate his violence, range of horrible acts, or even escalate to killing his victim. The most expert advice on how to minimise what is done to you in a sexual assault is to not fight (which goes against what society might tell us all, but it is fact). Often, a woman's vagina will lubricate during a rape purely because it is her body trying to minimise her suffering, despite her obviously not feeling one tiny shred of pleasure or consent.

It would not have been better if you had died. Not for you, not for your family and friends, not for anyone. It would have been better if some vile pig hadn't raped you, that's what's what.

One of the scariest aspects of rape or the thought of rape is having no power or control over what happens to your body. It's this fear thatmakes rape apologists find ridiculous ways in which to blame actual or potential victims, in order to alleviate their own discomfort around the topic. And it's what makes victims tell themselves that there was something they could have done, something they should have done, or that they did something wrong. Makes them analyse every part of their behaviour before, during and after. Makes them talk about 'letting' him. It is easier to blame yourself than to face up to the enormity of such obscene and unfair powerlessness.

The stark truth is, women get raped (and men too,yes) because men decide to rape and don't stop when they are raping, no matter what the victim says or does, or doesn't say or do.

There are several things that let rapists rape: a misogynist society, rape apologism and rape myths being constantly perpetuated and these creating a framework for some men to exercise their own feelings of inadequacy, powerlessness and inner troubles through violating others. But not what women do, say, where, go, etc. Never any of those.

StuntGirl · 11/08/2013 00:57

Do you know what? In a way I'm glad Kitty is being so ridiculous about this whole subject. Her utter lack of understanding and empathy comes from a place of total ignorance - how I wish everyone on this thread could share her same ignorance of rape!

I'm so very sorry for the women who have endured such terrible things. I only wish things could be better for you all.

WilsonFrickett · 11/08/2013 01:13

Pretty my wonderful DH is around twice my size and highly qualified in martial arts. There is not a self defence class in the world that would protect me against him, given he is already living in my home, should he decide to rape me.

Spikey I hope you're doing ok. Completely understand if you arent posting here any more but I believe you x.

tinkertitonk · 11/08/2013 11:24

Rape is defined unambiguously in English law (no such thing as UK law) by statute. OP, both instances that you describe fit this definition and it is terrible that that anything like that should have happened to you.

Suelford · 11/08/2013 16:15

"The stark truth is, women get raped (and men too,yes) because men decide to rape and don't stop when they are raping, no matter what the victim says or does, or doesn't say or do."

That's not true at all. The research is clear that some reactions can "deter the completion of an attempted sexual assault", and some will not. The relevant section:

"The development of self-defense training for women has been based on evidence that active resistance strategies can deter the completion of an attempted sexual assault (for reviews of this literature, see Rozee & Koss, 2001; Ullman, 2007). As described by Ullman (2007), these active resistance strategies include:

? Forceful physical resistance (e.g., biting, scratching, hitting, using a weapon, martial arts, or other physical self-defense techniques);
? Nonforceful physical resistance (e.g., fleeing, guarding one's body with one's arms, struggling); and
? Forceful verbal resistance (e.g., screaming, yelling, swearing).

On the other hand, nonforceful verbal resistance strategies (pleading, crying, reasoning) and not resisting (e.g., freezing) are not effective in reducing the likelihood of rape completion (Ullman, 2007). Based on this pattern of findings, some recent risk reduction programs for women have been designed to include information on resistance strategies, risky situations, and actual training in self-defense/resistance. "

StuntGirl · 11/08/2013 16:30

I'm sure that will come as a great comfort to the many women on this thread sharing their terrible secrets Sue.

What if through sheer fear and terror a woman cannot scream or shout? What if she's being beaten around the head and knocked about so badly she can't land a blow? What if she's restrained and unable to move?

I know you meant your post to be helpful but on a thread like this it simply compounds the feeling for many women that it was their fault; if they could have just done something different they would not have been raped.

Self defense is an excellent tool to have at one's disposal but the core message of anti-rape campaigns needs to focus on the perpetrator. The main anger and rage needs to land at the rapists feet.

CailinDana · 11/08/2013 16:34

Goof god I've read it all now. Pleading, crying and freezing are classed as "ineffective strategies?????" So not only does the victim have to feel like shit for being drunk or not staying in a group, she also has to feel bad about her "choice" to use crying and freezing as a "resistance strategy." Silly girl, why didn't she choose not to be afraid? Tut.

RinseAndRepeat · 11/08/2013 16:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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