to wonder about the definition of rape

[Justforlaughs]

Partly inspired by the thread about rape being common, I was wondering what people class as rape. Two examples, that I would be interested in your views on. Would either/ both of these class as rape or not.

1. Girl goes to stay at friends house, gets drunk. Friend goes to bed. Girl goes to bathroom, friends DP comes in and wants to have sex. Girl doesn't want to but being very drunk doesn't want to wake her friend up so doesn't scream or fight, just says no repeatedly. She does mean, no, but they have sex anyway.

2)Girl goes to a house party, gets drunk. Goes to bed with her boyfriend and passes out. Wakes up in the same bed, no sign of boyfriend but there are 3 other boys/ men in the bed with her. They say that they all had sex with her when she was out cold. She doesn't remember anything, but they say that she didn't protest.

So what does the mumsnet jury think?

To add there is no way for the researchers to know if in the instances where victims did "choose" to beg and plead or stay silent, whether other "resistance strategies" would have resulted in them being raped and killed. Not every rape situation is the same - a rapist who is grabbing an opportunity might be scared off by screaming whereas a psycho carrying out a planned rape might be spurred on by it.

I really wish I had stayed away now. I don't need research to tell me that it was ineffective, I bloody well know that, why do you think I feel so fucking awful?

Thank you to those of you who offered kind thoughts. Don't waste them on me though.

How are you doing today spikey?

I wish people would think before posting :(

Spikeytree you did NOTHING wrong.

You are NOT to blame.

There ARE people who can help you.

Surely we should be encouraging women to be proactive about their safety?

There are two articles posted from reputable sources, both of which have been rubbished by the majority on here. Both are completely sensible in their advice.

Why are some people incapable of seeing that offering safety advice does not equate to victim blaming?

Oh I'm fine, honest, no need to worry about me. I'm sorry if the tone of my posts is worrying, this is a raw subject for me but I'm fine.

I know I shouldn't look at these threads but it helps in a strange way to know that I'm not the only one who thinks I should take the blame.

NO ONE on this thread has said a rape victim is to blame.

It is what many people are trying to suggest for some odd reason...but I have read it start to finish and not one person is of that opinion

Gangsters would you agree that rape victims choose to cry and freeze as a resistance strategy?

Self defense is fine, and IMO all women should learn some.

The issue here is that often (as ably demonstrated by Spikeytree) bringing these topics into a rape discussion makes the victims feel like the rape was their fault. Which is wasn't, and never could be.

No I wouldn't. Why?

I think Suelford's contribution was appropriate and relevant. However, as others have pointed out, the research needs taking in context. Some reactions (a more accurate description than "strategies" in my opinion) might not be active choices. Some reactions may be all that kept the survivor from an even worse outcome.

YY Vivacia

Becausevthe research that sue refers to calls them "resistance strategies." Or was it another piece of research you were referring to?

Crying and freezing with fear are both perfectly normal reflex reactions. A person doesn't make a conscious decision to do so.

FWIW I said no, I screamed, I tried to bang the walls to alert a neighbour, I tried to run, I hit him, kicked him, struggled, tried to clamp my legs together when he was all his weight to pin me down at constrict my breathing. It achieved 2 things: 1 he got a lot angrier so hit me harder and 2 my neighbours asked me the next day to be more considerate about noise in future.

What on earth is the point in saying that rape victims shouldn't cry plead or freeze if they don't actually choose to do those things??? Do people who believe this research honestly think that rape victims think "I could stay calm and kick this guy off me but you know what I'll cry instead."

Meant to add that when you are being raped you don't actually have much time to think things through so most of what you do is a reflex reaction. It feels like the pain and trauma ate going on forever but at the same time everything is happening so quickly and pretty much out of your control.

I mean seriously would you believe research that said "Don't cry while you're being robbed it'll only make them steal more."
The only advice worth giving on this is whatever you need to do to survive and get through without injury is ok. You don't need to analyse or be ashamed of your actions.

In a recent thread a rape victim was told she wasn't raped because she took off her own trousers therefore she had initiated sex. Never mind that she was scared and made it clear she didn't want sex, because she didn't wait for him to hold her down and rip her clothes off (possibly injuring or killing her) she was at fault.

I know I should stay away from this thread but - I have a brown belt in a martial . When my xp started raping me whilst I slept. I woke up terrified and froze. My brown belt counted for nothing. I just froze and waited for it to end.

What all this "advice" leads to is a list of requirements and questions for the victim. If society believes that a woman can avoid rape by doing certain things when a woman does get rapedthe response isn't "oh you poor thing," it's "did you walk home alone, did you scream?" The focus isn't on helping the victim it's on what she did/didn't do that "caused" the rape.

So sorry that it happened to you.

Spikeytree, kind thoughts are not wasted on you. I feel the same way myself, but really, do try to believe that they are not wasted on you - they are wasted on me but not on you, you did nothing at all wrong.