To want to know why rape is so common?

[AnneNonimous]

And want to understand why it happens?

I have been raped twice, once as a 14 year old and once as a 20 year old. I'd say 99% of the women I know have been raped at some point in their lives too. Growing up I almost accepted it as some kind of right of passage. It was just something that happened to women.

I was discussing this with a good friend of mine recently. She has been raped before and said she thinks its something all men have in them. She revealed to me that her husband had told her when he stayed the night at a female friends house recently he had imagined raping her.

I don't believe her, or don't want to believe her at least. I must admit my faith in men is extremely sparse and my life experiences have probably left me bitter but I do have a dad and a brother and I wouldn't want to believe they could ever be capable of being a rapist. I am disturbed by what my friend has told me about her husband and have never liked him but also know there won't be much I could tell her to make her see this.

But the fact still remains that it's very very common. If not rape then some kind of sexual abuse/assault. Aibu to want to understand why this is?

Amazing post Annie. One of the best I think I've ever read. Very insightful.

The dark haired thing is ridiculous. I am size 8, 30dd, long blonde haired, blue eyes. My nickname at school was Barbie. Its got nothing to do with being blonde or dark haired.

I'm dark haired. Some rapists (please note I said some) will have a type and perhaps for some that is blonde for others it may be a red hair or black etc. Other rapists won't actually care what colour hair a woman has.

Admittedly my breasts aren't tiny but I cover them up as much as possible and wear bras that make them look as small as possible.

The following, I think, is of great relevance in discussing all this (warning - a difficult and depressing read).

www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/

The author, David Lisak, is a social scientist who studies 'undetected rapists' (as opposed to rapists who've been identified by the criminal justice system). As I remember from other bits of his stuff I've read, he uses a variety of methods, but methods include anonymous questionnaires, both where a minority of his respondents self-identify as rapists, and those who admit to patterns of behaviour which would legally count as rape, even if the word 'rape' is not used in the description of the behaviour.

This piece in particular is interesting, because it's a review article (covering both undetected and convicted rapists) which has answers to some of the questions up thread. Two things absolutely jump out at me: (1) rapists rape a lot - between 7 and 11 victims each on average; and (2) they are cross-over offenders, in that they also engage in other forms of sexual assault, domestic violence, etc. (So those of you pointing out that flashing is not trivial - it escalates, and coexists with more physically invasive sexual assaults and rape are spot on - this is borne out by the stats about offending patterns).

And to everyone upthread who's shared their experiences of being assaulted or raped: I believe you.

Also (putting this in a separate post because I don't want the previous one to get muddled with some of the rape apologist derailing that's been going on) addressing the pathetic apologies for members of the human race who've been saying "I don't believe rape is prevalent because none of my friends have ever told me that it's happened to them" - has it ever occurred to you that there's a damn good reason they don't tell you? If you come out with the sort of victim blaming shite in real life that you've come out with on this thread, of course they're not going to bloody tell you. They probably go home, probably greatly distressed, then try to socialise with someone with some vestiges of human empathy next time round.

Hmmm I do believe those saying its happened to them. I also believe those saying they don't know anyone. To me both statements can be true at the same time.

For example there's a statistic that says 1 in 3 will suffer a type of cancer. But this can happen where one person ends up knowing lots of people but another no one. Sociological and physiological items play their part to ebb and flow the who what where.

I think similar could be said of most disease and equally most human behaviour. I think everyone has the capability for murder for example, but it takes various factors to crash together to create the perfect storm where a person actually acts on the possibility. Everyone has capability because we are human but various external forces mean most people do not. Same with sexual assault and rape.

Of course the other issue with SA is that so many women might not count an event as SA. And sometimes boys/men do something without realising they have strayed into SA territory. Then there are the nasty ones that do and repeat and escalate.

What fascinates me is how many members of the public know this escalation stuff but professionals act surprised. Do they not watch CSI? Oprah? JK? Jerry SPringer et al? Do they not read magazines like Cosmo/Marie Claire/GQ even? It baffles me.....

So many thoughts about this i don't know where to start.

I don't think bickering/debating how to classify what is or isn't sexual assault is very helpful in a thread like this. I think we should be concentrating on making it clear that women should have the right to feel abused and report a man's behaviour without fear of being asked if it really 'counts'. And right now i don't think we all feel we do have that right.

Being wanked at for eg:
Not 'worth' reporting? What - even if it's at a 3 year old? A 10 year old? Fine once the viewer has reached puberty? Fine once the viewer is 'old enough to cope'? If it's happened to you and you were able to brush it off, didn't it cross your mind to report it in case the next person he did it to was the 3 year old?

Everyone saying their husband/brother/father/son wouldn't do it ... and? This makes me laugh really. It's meaningless. Someone's doing it. And they were someone's son for sure. Quite possibly a brother/husband or father too. Someone upthread even said they no of noone who has been raped/assaulted and no of no one who would do it. They then go on to say in fact they knew someone who had raped two minors. Well - they know of 2 victims and personally know a rapist. But it's still 'soooooo hard to believe' apparently.

I was flashed at on a bus as a young girl - 8 or 9. I told my mum and she told me to not sit upstairs on the bus again. No anger. No attempt to report it. I grew up in London and was touched up/flashed at/wanked at/'grinded against' on the tube and in large crowds so many times as a teen that i considered it an occupational hazard of going up-town. Sometimes these things would occur in broad daylight in not so packed trains and stations. People just looked the other way. Looking back isn't it sad that not once anyone thought it would be ok to shout out ''leave her alone you dirty bastard, or i'm calling the police''. I've been raped within marriage. Which i cant talk about. NONE of my friends know about it.

One of my DDs was flashed at outside her primary school a few years ago. I was absolutely fuming for her, we went together into the school and reported it. The police were contacted. A letter was sent round the village with a description of the man and his car. The local bobby stayed near the school at the end of the day for a few weeks. A normal and good response. My DD saw all this and was angry and pro-active about what had happened to her. It was talked about in class. She said she felt protected by me, her school, the local policeman and her friends. She knows it's not ok for a man to touch himself in front of her, or to touch her without her permision. I know seems is a small thing on this thread - but i'm glad she was not given the message ''best not to sit upstairs on buses'' or ... ''hmmm, that doesn't really count as sexual assault darling''.

Sorry, that was way too long

I just hope any members of mumsnet who support the "we believe you campaign" would have the moral fortitude to excuse themselves from jury service if they were called up for a rape trial.

I find the "no one I know has been raped" comments completely astonishing.

I didn't know so many people had such special mind reading powers.

If you only take one thing from this thread,please let it be an acceptance that you have no idea what may or may not have happened to your friends. So many women have posted here that they have never told anyone, or they don't talk about it. Hear them.

I could be your friend. And you would have no idea I've been raped twice.

Morning everyone,

Thank you to everyone who reported this thread to us, and mentioned our We Believe You campaign. You can read more about it here.

Why delboys?
With so few rape cases even getting to court why boycott them if on jury service?

Because a MNetter would have already decided on the outcome before even hearing a shred of evidence. How would that be justice?

No, fluffy, it was spot on. They way you and your community dealt with that flasher is fantastic. If only that response could become the norm.
It both teaches girls that they don't have to put up with sexual assault, and teaches perpetrators that what they're doing is unacceptable.

Agree with delboys.

I don't think I can respond to derby's post without breaking Talk guidelines in a most spectacular fashion. Hopefully someone else will be able to address the idiocy of her/his comments in a more tactful manner than I feel capable of.

Sorry, delboy, not derby. Stupid phone.

Oh, nope, can't not say anything. Considering the chances are very high that the other 11 members of the jury would blame the victim, and the defence council would be doing their utmost to show how the rape victim asked for it, I would have absolutely no ethical conflict in sitting the case with my mind set to believe the victim unless there was very impressive evidence to the contrary.

How so Annie? Not meaning to be obtuse here but surely the whole point of the we believe you campaign is just that? So regardless of what is said in court the supporter of that campaign has already committed to the idea that the victim is telling the truth. How could they possibily listen to the evidence and make an impartial decision?

Then in terms of acting on a jury in a Court, your presence there and attitude would be just as wrong as the other Jurors.

How crass to suggest that nurturing a culture of believing rather than the current victim blaming in general society is going to somehow impede justice in a court of law

Talk about a straw man argument ......

I fear this fab thread is now going to be completely derailed by twats!

Del please start your own thread to discuss your amazing pov.

Very presumptuous aren't we delby. Personally I'd listen to the evidence specific to that case.

Also, the We Believe You campaign is not about throwing every man accused of rape in prison without fair trial. It's about not automatically asking what the victim did to lead him on, what she was wearing, if she had previously consented to sex etc etc. ie, not victims-blaming.

Most men accused of rape are acquitted on the grounds that the victim wore a short skirt.

How is that justice?

Yes Del, please do start your own thread.

Hopefully it will attract posters better able to debate with you than i am. Putting a post like yours at the end of a long thread about rape is a cowardly action.