to be getting a bit mentally drained by this friend

[dirtyface]

there is an absolutely huge back story to this. in summary, my friend has ME, has had it since she was 16. and has never had dcs, married, moved out of home etc (her parents kind of care for her i think) and a whole host of other physical and mental health problems that i think a lot of them are in her head

she is absolutely lovely. she is clever, funny, loyal, beautiful and a brilliant mate, one of the nicest women i know

the trouble is, she gets into relationships with men who mainly just cannot cope with all her problems. they inevitably act like twats, hurt her, dump her, or she dumps them for being twats. but otoh because of her myriad problems, she can't be the girlfriend that guys want, ie she won't sleep over their house, she won't see them more than a few times a week as it apparently wears her out, but then obviously that means the relationships cant move on naturally. the one or 2 nice, understanding guys she has been with, she dumps them for being too nice

she is also very attention seeking, constantly putting cryptic statuses on FB (usually re latest dodgy relationship or latest health thing) that seemed designed to elicit sympathy. i can tell lately that a lot of people are getting a bit weary of her (we have a few mutual friends) i can tell just by the lack of response on FB etc. she seems to almost revel in many of her various health problems (none of which are life threatening / limiting btw). i also think she should fight it more and tbh her family, in particular her mum is quite enabling. my mum would have told me to get a grip TBH.

i have loads going on in my own life. a home to run, kids, a husband, my own business, money problems, my own mental health problems (anxiety and depression). i worry about her a lot and its all getting a bit much.

i feel like such a cow and a rubbish friend. but its getting hard for me to support her. and i really do want to. sorry this is long but i dont want to drip feed.

so i just wanted to know if anyone has been in a similar situation to either me or my friend, and has any advice for me.

she is not on any kind of treatment for it at the moment, i don't think. i think she has tried things that haven't worked. and she has been prescribed anti depressants but she always seems to get bad side effects from them, so at the moment she has paid privately for hormone treatment from some harley street expert for her depression but that doesn't seem to be working for her either

and apparently she can't take pain killers either

it seems to me (from what she has told me) that not even actual medical professionals really understand ME, she has physio for the pain and apparently the physio told her she needs to get a grip and get a job, nice :S

It's true that many medics don't really "get" M.E. Is she in touch with any M.E. organisations such as the M.E. Association?

dirtyface - I have heard before that many ME patients can't take antidepressants at full dose, they suggest trying a quarter or even 10% dose IIRC. I can't find a reference for that right now.

I think I posted this upthread, but this drug trial is really the first for ME. It is already used for rheumatoid arthritis patients. If the trial repeats earlier results, it would help two thirds of ME patients. At the moment there isn't a drug for ME.

oh really CFS thats interesting re the anti depressants

and thanks for the link, will mention it to my friend somehow

I have no real knowledge of M.E but do have a close friend with F.M and I have seen/heard how debilitating it is for her and like gobby her G.P fobs her off with fm for her complaints but that nearly cost her to be severely physically impacted for life and could have killed her because of their ignorance.
Thankfully she just needs more meds for life.

You sound like you have no sympathy or understanding for your friend and actually don't like her that much.

It's ok not to like her for her and not be friends which I suggest you do.

This thread has really opened my eyes to some of the nastier users of Mumsnet. It's the first thread I've ever cried at. I'm sat here next to my sleeping parter, a diagnosis of M.E. over my head, wide awake because I am too tired to sleep.

I'm going to go ahead and address some of the points that have really upset me, because I'm the thin-skinned kind of person, according to my tear ducts. Ignore my waffly ramblings and just cut to the chase by calling me deluded, psychologically unstable, etc, if needed.

There's a strong sense of the "if you have M.E., you must be a whinger" opinion on this thread. Lots of people have struggled to separate M.E. from OP's friends other traits. Well guess what? M.E. ain't a fucking trait. You can be the whingyiest, most bullshittingist drama queen in all the land with or without being ill, with M.E. or not.

and has never had dcs, married, moved out of home etc (her parents kind of care for her i think) and a whole host of other physical and mental health problems that i think a lot of them are in her head

Can't get my head round this. She has M.E. and a myriad of other disabilities & diseases at your admission. Yet you are certain the reason she has not been able to progress with her adult life is because her parents baby her and because she thrives on people's sympathy. You are SO right, it must be all in her head. What a nasty fucker! Has she never even tried to blame it on an ill... oh no wait. Wait. She has. She's confided in you her diagnoses. But no, I guess it probably is all in her head, what with all that whinging on Facebook she does.

Her relationship problems are none of your business. If she chooses to confide in you about some dickhead she's been dating, that's her prerogative. I don't see what right that then gives you to go ahead and blame her love life woes on her illness, just because a few spineless dickheads can't cope with all her problems.

In fact, the only thing I can see that she's done wrong is calling you at midnight once when you were feeling rough. You are mixing up way too many things which are personality traits with behaviours that are caused as a result of M.E. (and through not being believed, having to rely on parents for support, lack of independence, etc).

in particular her mum is quite enabling. my mum would have told me to get a grip TBH.

Presumably you don't live with your friend and her mother? What behaviour exactly is her enabling her daughter's "fantasy"? Allowing her to stay at home? Caring for her? Guess what. That's what having M.E. entails, a loss of independence. Your friend is lucky she has a mother caring enough to support her. Your mummy sounds charming.

You don't really understand M.E.? Personally, I think it sounds like you've already decided the pain and fatigue she is suffering is not real. Maybe you need to work on approaching her and her illness in an unbiased way before you decide whether you want to continue the friendship.

and thanks for the link, will mention it to my friend somehow

This is possibly the most offensive thing you can do for an ill friend, particularly one who suffers from an illness which is not greatly understood. I'm surprised that as a sufferer of anxiety & depression you have never been approached by well-meaning moronic friends or relatives who have discovered the magical miracle cure to all your woes.

Read this. And this. Read it again and again and again until it sinks in. Interestingly, the first link is hosted by a website named (aptly) "but you don't look sick". Bet that's just a bullshit line too. Bet the writer lives with her mum. Bet her mum enables her. Hasn't she heard of lightening therapy!?

A few other points that have riled me up:

1. Being anything less than being bed-bound does not constitute mild M.E..
2. M.E. is not psychosomatic.
3. M.E. can occur both post virally and spontaneously (genetically!? No one is sure yet afaik).
4. If you are under the impression that recovery or "cure" is a good dose of will-power followed with some vitamin tablets, fuck right off.
5. People have died from complications of M.E.. It can be both debilitating and life-shortening. Such fun.

I suspect the only reason the friend hasn't ditched you is that all other members of the peer group have fucked off.

YABU if you hadn't guessed. Ditch her if you want but do not cite M.E. as a reason, you aren't that spineless, surely. If you want to tell her to stop being a drama queen, go ahead. But be fucking careful that you don't link drama-queen-ness and her medical diagnoses, because they are very fucking separate.

Fuck, that was better than therapy

olidusUrsus

you refer to dirtyface's reply to me

"and thanks for the link, will mention it to my friend somehow"

and call it offensive.

She was actually referring to the link I posted.

For anyone who isn't aware of this research:-

A couple of years ago, it was found in Norway that a drug called Rituximab which is used for rheumatoid arthritis, also helped two-thirds of ME patients. Some of them have got their lives back.

publication

"This immune modulating drug helped 67% of ME patients who took part in research in Norway to such a remarkable extent that the Norwegian Health Directorate apologised for the way ME patients have been treated"

Since then, the possibility of ME being successfully treated by this class of drugs has been a hot topic at the International ME Conference held in London each year. These conferences are fully CPD accredited by the Royal Colleges.

The last conference was attended by Professor Jonathan Edwards. You remember I said that this drug is used for rheumatoid arthritis? That is thanks to him. And now he is willing to advise on a UK trial to see if this drug can do the same for us.

This is the best chance we have had in 30 years. Anyone affected by ME needs to know about this.

YANBU.

I think you are trying to put your friend above your own health. You have depression and anxiety and suffering from both myself, it's tough enough. However much you want to support your friend, especially as she is suffering from such a horrible illness, I think it's a tough call between supporting her and protecting your own mental health. She doesn't seem to care about your own personal needs, and yet you are trying your best to support her.

Me can be very, very isolating, but I think it's wrong to blame all of the behaviour on ME. Some is completely understandable and not her fault at all- and having people see that as an annoying part of her must be terrible, and one reason why so many people can become isolated. But others are just because of her personality. She isn't defined by the ME and it's wrong and offensive to act as if all of her behaviour is caused by ME- and ME is enough reason to stick by her. If you dislike her for her personality (not for the ME) then I think YANBU.

olidus

i really am genuinely sorry if i have upset you :( that was absolutely not my intention, to upset anyone.

and i will read through the links you posted

but i have to say i am not sure how it would be offensive to my friend to mention the link that CFS posted, am i being completely thick here but surely the possibility of something that might help her would be a good thing :S

Hi Kate, sorry if I've offended you with being offended. Maybe I've been stung, but honestly the worst advice has come from the mouths of those meaning to help.

There is a very good piece written by a doctor (that I can't find) about how demoralising it can be to have what are often promises of false hope thrusted under your nose by well meaning people.

Essentially, it's quite rude to be constantly offered treatment/pills/"cures" when not even the medical community knows what's really going on. It is often offered because the person is kind and caring and wants you to get better, but it can manifest into that person playing down the seriousness of the illness and can lead to denial that the illness is really real ("but how do you know that you can't be cured, you didn't take those vitamin tablets I recommended!")

By all means mention it to her dirty if you feel you must, but don't be surprised if she is stand-offish in return.
I appreciate you didn't set out to upset anyone. It wasn't you alone really, it was your post coupled with the replies of MN'ers who usernames I recognised. I did consider stopping reading the thread when I saw the letters "M.E.". Maybe I should have done.

The trouble with long-term illnesses dirtyface is that it can be wearing to have friends/family constantly coming up with suggestions. Everyone thinks they're the only person to suggest things but usually everyone will have some bright idea. "Have you tried vitamin C/watching TV/yoga/positive thinking/homeopathy?" as if the other person won't have already considered every possible thing to try to get better. It can come across as trivialising the illness, and a bit patronising, however well meant.

olidusUrsus, Saffyz, I totally understand what it's like when well meaning people say "have you tried this, have you tried that? Oh well, if you don't take my advice I guess you don't really want to get better."

But this drug trial is the biggest thing to have happened in years, all the ME doctors, researchers, charities are looking at this, and at ME as a possible autoimmune illness.

This isn't word of mouth or hearsay. It's real science, a double blind placebo controlled trial in Norway. It is essential that this is followed up on, to find out why the drug made these people better, some of them are still well 4-5 years after taking the drug.

It's not a miracle cure, and won't work for everyone, but it's a real chance at getting some drugs that work to treat ME.

I have an old friend who has a cronic illness which she's had throughout her life I've known her (since early teens) and the lack of social skills strikes a cord - and as others have said, it always seems to be due to not having to ever be an adult. If you've never had to think about adult issues, never had to grow up (which is not to say it's any fault of your own if you can't), then it often is hard to understand pressures on others.

In my friend's case, there's also similarly inablity to see other people's problems or be a good friend back, but then I tend to think when you are in so much pain, it's hard to have the 'headspace' to care. It's not to say my friend or yours are a bitch, it's more that when your need is so great, you don't have anything to give. Even when your friends need you to support them, you still need them to support you, so it's not possible to find the depths to care about their problems. My friend isn't horrible, but she just can't have a two way friendship, she has to just take, she's got nothing to give. Sadly this means when I've had problems in my life I have had to step away from her because I know she's not someone I can turn to. She'd hate to think of herself as a 'bad friend' but she is, it's not her fault and it's understandable, but that doesn't change the fact she can only take support, not give it.

What's important is you realise this and avoid being disappointed by her behaviour, when you are in need of help, step away rather than expecting her to be able to offer you support. (It's the old broken leg, stubbed toe thing, your broken leg might hurt more than my stubbed toe, but you having a broken leg doesn't mean my stubbed toe doesn't hurt. Your friend is never going to be able to sympathise with a stubbed toe.)

I cant get past the cunt who thinks people who are so mentally unwell they want to die in a painful and traumatic way should really be thinking of the poor train drivers ! - As if if was even possible !

Fuck me. Some people.

Sorry I realise that is not helpful to OP.

I don't think it's mandatory for the OP to educate herself on a friend's condition. I don't expect my friends to research or read anything on my condition. They're my mates, I want to hang out and be as 'normal' as I can, not talk meds and blood test results

I don't know why so many people are adamant that M.E. does not have psychiatric origins. (For the record, I have no opinion or knowledge either way as I don't know huge amounts about M.E.) If it is a MH problem, it is just as valid and serious as if it's a physical one. The adamant "it's a physical problem!" people are perpetuating stigma around MH. Also, MH conditions involve brain chemistry, so MH problems does have physical origins anyway.

I am not going to comment on the ME stuff because I know nothing about that.

But OP mentions that she has anxiety and depression - and that is something I know a whole lot about from personal experience. In particular, I know that when it isbad it can be very difficult to deal with other peoples emotional problems or just their venting and whinging. Partly because it costs you so much effort to carry on that you have little to give, partly because anxiety and depression carry "guilt spirals" (for want of a better expression) and you feel that it is a reflection on you that they are where they are and you can't help them out. And lastly, because anxiety and depression often involve some degree of impaired judgement, which makes it harder to do the detaching thing from other people's problems which we all need to do a little bit to keep ourselves sane.

OP, I can't advise on whether or not you should let her go. But if you do want to keep her in your life, but just get less drained by it, then I do recommend some CBT techniques. David Burns Feeling Good has a chapter on dealing with difficult people and that might be somewhere to start.

It might also be worth recommending that the friend gets some therapy. I am not saying that ME or any of her other issues are in her mind only, but therapy could help her deal with them more effectively. I know several people with long term physical conditions who have found CBT effective in this.

candycoatedwaterdrops

"If it is a MH problem, it is just as valid and serious as if it's a physical one."

I agree.

"The adamant "it's a physical problem!" people are perpetuating stigma around MH."

If someone insists that AIDS is a physical problem, are they perpetuating stigma against MH illnesses?

"I don't know why so many people are adamant that M.E. does not have psychiatric origins."

Probably because treating ME as a psychiatric illness leads to ME patients getting worse/dead.

"Also, MH conditions involve brain chemistry, so MH problems does have physical origins anyway."

I think this is interesting, upthread I was talking about ME being viewed as autoimmune, but I have also read that several mental illnesses may sometimes be caused by autoimmunity too. The brain is a physical organ as you say.

"If someone insists that AIDS is a physical problem, are they perpetuating stigma against MH illnesses? "

No of course not because it's been found that AIDS is a virus.

Presumably it's not the same with ME as no-one knows the exact cause of it.

Probably because treating ME as a psychiatric illness leads to ME patients getting worse/dead.

Could you link to the evidence for this please?

shellbot I'm in a rush, but people with ME see this, and are understandably wary.

In Mirza's case, and in another autopsy on a young British man, "there was no way their illness could be explained by a primary psychiatric condition", Chaudhuri says

Interestingly there was a case of a severe ME patient who killed herself a few years ago, and her autopsy "When her body was examined by the pathologist who specialised in M.E, he discovered ?dorsal root ganglionitis? - infected nerve roots ? and nodules of Nageotte, which are little tombs of dead cells, in her spinal cord. These would have caused her terrible pain and sensory nerve damage. They found similar cells in the body of Sophia Mirza, an ME sufferer who died in 2005 at the age of 32, and I believe in other sufferers. These findings are proof that Lynn's ME was a neurological disease?."

I am aware this conversation is veering away from the OP's post, should we take it to General Health?

dirtyface, I agree with dancingwithmyselfandthecat, I think that you do need to take care of yourself first.

CFSKate As above, AIDS has a biological pathology. M.E. does not (yet!) so for now, I think people should be open in accepting that it could be either way.

Not read the whole thread - will go back but am too angry by the op.

I had PVFS for months - it was utter utter hell, I cannot imagine my life being like that :(

shellbot or anyone - if really interested in latest research on ME, look at conference pages here or conference writeup here or the ICC here

The main thing happening at the moment IMO is this chance of a drug trial that I talked about already, it would be amazing to get this to happen, the best hope in years.

we do have a big thread on General Health for those us with chronic illnesses, not just ME

Drop this friend. She sounds like a self indulgent, selfish person. No illness gives you the right to be an arse.

I don't know anything about M.E but if the friends behaviour is negatively affecting your life you should cut her out or see less of her. You have your own issues to deal with including miscarriage, depression...

Of course it depends on how deep seated your friendship is but why not take a friendship holiday for a while?