to want Amazon to withdraw a book endosing beating children from sale?

[missfliss]

Dear Mumsnetters,

This is my first post here, so please be kind. And yes, I have joined specifically because of this issue ? but I?m sure I?ll stick around too and have signed up to be a product tester etc.

A friends Facebook post today made me aware of the following title for sale on Amazon UK which advocates and endorses the beating of children ? from as young as 4 months old ? as a ?discipline tool?.

The book is called ?How to train Up a Child? and I have quoted some bits from it below.

I realise amazon aren?t breaking the law by selling it, but cannot believe they have chosen to list it for sale ? and so I have started a petition to get it withdrawn.

Thanks for reading,

Missfliss

Here?s the book:
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1892112000/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1BEG0RMJC314P2KS4VYD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=358549207&pf_rd_i=468294

here?s my petition
www.change.org/petitions/amazon-uk-withdraw-a-title-which-endorses-beating-children-from-4-months-of-age

here?s the quotes:
Quotes from the book:

"At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree"

So hitting a 4 month old with a willow sprig is an acceptable form of punishment?

"After about ten acts of stubborn defiance, followed by ten switchings, he surrendered his will to one higher than himself. In rolling the wheel, he did what every accountable human being must do-he humbled himself before the "highest" and admitted that his interests are not paramount. After one begrudged roll, my wife turned to other chores"

She is talking about a 15 month old baby who would not play with what SHE wanted him to play with!

"On the bare legs or bottom, switch him eight or ten licks; then, while waiting for the pain to subside, speak calm words of rebuke. If the crying turns to a true, wounded, submissive whimper, you have conquered; he has submitted his will. If the crying is still defiant, protesting and other than a response to pain, spank him again"

Let's beat that child in to submission! That's exactly why we have children isn't it? Pah!

"One particularly painful experience of nursing mothers is the biting baby. My wife did not waste time finding a cure. When the baby bit, she pulled hair (an alternative has to be sought for baldheaded babies)"

Yes, pull a newborn's hair! That'll teach him!

Balls, missed your post while fannying around grimma, good point...

"However, it is not illegal to sell it in the UK."

I am sorry, this is misleading. It is actually to sell it in the UK, so no UK-based stores will stock it, but as Amazon is based outside UK, it is allowed to sell it into the UK.

Re-read the post and realized this is not what I was told. Sorry.

Bollocks,

"It is actually illegal to sell it in the UK"

apologies again.

Great... tax dodge and supply illegal 'parenting advice' in one.

wow - thanks bemybebe for doing that. its not great news but further validates that petition.
Consumers speaking out is the only way to stop amazon promoting this book and therefore its practices on their website.

people will buy there assuming the content is fine / legitimate / approved etc

"It is actually illegal to sell it in the UK"

how so?

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke

By signing this petition we are, to some extent, re-establishing what we will accept as societal norms.

In an era in which sexual deviance and the abhorrent treatment of human beings is almost accepted, this is an effort to push those boundaries back (albeit in a relatively small and anonymous manner).

It is unacceptable that a book instructing parents and guardians in corporal punishment is legally sold in a country (UK) in which corporal punishment is illegal.

This is an instruction manual, a 'how to' book for (I assume) extreme Evangelical Christians and for those of you who fail to realise that religious extremists tend to hang on every word uttered (or in this case printed) by an extremist 'leader' of their Faith, you are being wholly naive.

xylem can't say I'm surprised to see you arguing against reason and being antagonistic to boot.

It has been explained, more than once, that this petition is not seeking to censor or ban this or any other similar books, but is asking a retailer with a lot of weight behind it to take a stand and choose not to sell these types of 'how to effectively abuse children' instruction manuals, yet you 'play ignorant' and continue to ask the same question in a slightly different way. Give it up. You really are quite boring after a fashion.

Welcome to MN Miss and it has been a bit of a Baptism of Fire luckily, the majority of us are reasonable, empathetic (if somewhat sweary) vipers and, like those above who have reconsidered their original stance, are open to changing our opinions, under the right circumstances.

I like slightly sweary and I've been heartened on the whole by the approach to discussion with very very few exceptions. I'm also chuffed how many people have signed the petition as a result.

Thanks to those of you who did contribute, it's brilliant

I too, of course, think this book is vile.
But, I do not think it should be banned. Whilst I do not agree with this ' parenting style' , many people do. So they should be free to buy this book.
I do not like dogging. But I think that a book about it just pushes it into an underworld that is just not beneficial to any of us.
There are books about peadophilia. Makes me feel ill. But I still think these books should be published, and not pushed underground.
I am basically saying that I do not think any book should be banned.

I have unfortunately read this sick book. My mil gave it to me as she used it with her kids. I believe it has damaged my husband terribly. It made me shake with rage. It makes me cry that my husband was treated so horribly as a baby. My parents in law do not get to babysit. Please sign the petition.

FeegleFion - excellent post

Feeglefion who the heck do you think you are?I will state my opinions whenever and wherever I wish, thankyou .If you find them 'boring' then that is your problemor not.But it is so much easier to resort to personal attacks than argue the case.
And for the record where has anyone explained why it is illegal to sell this book?

Hitler banned books

Brilliant, complex. Excellent post.

Complex by name, eh?

Sheshelob
I get very worried when people suggest banning or restricting the sale of books because the object to the nature of the contents.

I take it you are familiar with what happened a couple of decades ago with Salaman Rushdie.

Actually, complex you automatically lose the argument here. Godwins Law

xylem I made no personal attack on you nor any other pp.

I merely stated an observation and how I, personally, felt.

This book promotes and actively encourages parents and carers of children, and small babies, to physically abuse their dependants, using implements!

I never suggested that the book was an illegal publication, I merely pointed to the instruction it delivers would result in illegal acts being performed.

I have spent some time reading CPS code or more accurately the 'checklist' they must satisfy before proceeding with cases brought in relation to the Obscene Publications Act and have, interestingly, found my way to the Legislation Act website and believe these types of books sit very comfortably with at least one of the criteria for bringing a case.

" 1 Test of obscenity.

(1)For the purposes of this Act an article shall be deemed to be obscene if its effect or (where the article comprises two or more distinct items) the effect of any one of its items is, if taken as a whole, such as to tend to deprave and corrupt persons who are likely, having regard to all relevant circumstances, to read, see or hear the matter contained or embodied in it.

(2)In this Act “article” means any description of article containing or embodying matter to be read or looked at or both, any sound record, and any film or other record of a picture or pictures.

(3)For the purposes of this Act a person publishes an article who—
(a)distributes, circulates, sells, lets on hire, gives, or lends it, or who offers it for sale or for letting on hire; or
(b)in the case of an article containing or embodying matter to be looked at or a record, shows, plays or projects it [F1, or, where the matter is data stored electronically, transmits that data.]: . . . F2
[F3(4)For the purposes of this Act a person also publishes an article to the extent that any matter recorded on it is included by him in a programme included in a programme service.

(5)Where the inclusion of any matter in a programme so included would, if that matter were recorded matter, constitute the publication of an obscene article for the purposes of this Act by virtue of subsection (4) above, this Act shall have effect in relation to the inclusion of that matter in that programme as if it were recorded matter.

(6)In this section “programme” and “programme service” have the same meaning as in the Broadcasting Act 1990.]

I'm quite and extremely disappointed in anyone who doesn't identify these type of publications as akin to child sex abuse publications.

We all agree or I presume and very much hope we all agree that the publication and distribution of child pornography is unacceptable and as such it is illegal to possess any form of media which would be deemed indecent in relation to this, so please explain why these types of books shouldn't be censored ?

I have no doubt, at all, I'm my mind that child sex offenders who have a taste for or even just a curiosity for S&M would find their own uses for such books.

This petition isn't only about petitioning Amazon, it's also about Safeguarding Children and making some noise to say child abuse and exploitation, of any kind, will not be tolerated within our society.

I have signed both petitions. If it were on lend in my local library, I would petition them to have it removed. If it were on sale in my local bookshop, I would petition them to remove it from sale.

I don't advocate banning the publishing of such books, but they shouldn't be given any level of advertising, nor be easily available, IMO. Disgusting really that anyone would consider it appropriate to publish it, but hey. Their choice - or it could have been privately published. Still no excuse to give it a wider audience.

Feegle! I had no idea what Godwin's Law was until I googled it. I shall now be using it CONSTANTLY. I also may love you just a little bit.

OK - last time i am going to say this - i am NOT petitioning for a ban.

i am merely asking a retailer to be responsible and not promote a book encouraging adult caregivers to physically abuse babies and young children.

make sense?

Still in doubt - read the news, read about what happened to little Daniel Pelka and please consider why ANYTHING that endorses the abuse of children has no place being accepted or tolerated in our society.

"Godwin's Law"

Brilliant.

Missfliss - Do Amazon promote the book?

You need to be really clear about what you are asking of them, I think.

So are you asking that they stop promoting the book, or that they stop selling it?

(Not that I disagree. And the Daniel Pelka story was truly horrific, what a poor child. There just aren't words.

From a legal perspective, though, this is an interesting issue. If I can understand both sides well enough, I may quiz some lawyers if I see them)

I sometimes think we make a bit of a holy cow out of books.

Sure, in the vast majority of cases censorship is wrong - political ideas etc should be allowed however much we disagree with them. But this sort of book seems to me to be essentially a tool for abusing children. We wouldn't expect any responsible retailer to sell physical instruments designed to hurt children - so what is the difference?

I also think that maybe we shouldn't make such a distinction between sexual and other forms of physical abuse.

cajadelamemoria - to clarify i mean the selling and promotion of the book.

Making a book available for sale on their website means it appears automatically in topic charts, mailings with similiar titles and will be readily found ('searchable') so with amazon sale and promotion go hand in hand, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Also amazons own policies about what they allow for sale, mean that the very act of selling it means it has in the eyes of the consumer been 'rubber stamped' as suitable for general consumption and legitmises the content even further.

Part of the argument is that the contents of the book contravene amazon's own guidelines as to what they will and won't sell.

The fact that the NSPCC and Barnados have seperately asked amazon not to list the title should also be considered.

FeegleFion i heart you!

Godwins Law (from Wikipedia)
Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is an assertion made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin said that, given enough time, in any online discussion?regardless of topic or scope?someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.

Although in one of its early forms Godwin's law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[4] the law is now often applied to any threaded online discussion, such as forums, chat rooms and blog comment threads, and has been invoked for the inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches.[5] The law is sometimes invoked prescriptively to mark the end of a discussion when a Nazi analogy is made, with the writer who made the analogy being considered to have lost the argument.