to want Amazon to withdraw a book endosing beating children from sale?

[missfliss]

Dear Mumsnetters,

This is my first post here, so please be kind. And yes, I have joined specifically because of this issue ? but I?m sure I?ll stick around too and have signed up to be a product tester etc.

A friends Facebook post today made me aware of the following title for sale on Amazon UK which advocates and endorses the beating of children ? from as young as 4 months old ? as a ?discipline tool?.

The book is called ?How to train Up a Child? and I have quoted some bits from it below.

I realise amazon aren?t breaking the law by selling it, but cannot believe they have chosen to list it for sale ? and so I have started a petition to get it withdrawn.

Thanks for reading,

Missfliss

Here?s the book:
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1892112000/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1BEG0RMJC314P2KS4VYD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=358549207&pf_rd_i=468294&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

here?s my petition
www.change.org/petitions/amazon-uk-withdraw-a-title-which-endorses-beating-children-from-4-months-of-age


here?s the quotes:
Quotes from the book:

"At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree"

So hitting a 4 month old with a willow sprig is an acceptable form of punishment?

"After about ten acts of stubborn defiance, followed by ten switchings, he surrendered his will to one higher than himself. In rolling the wheel, he did what every accountable human being must do-he humbled himself before the "highest" and admitted that his interests are not paramount. After one begrudged roll, my wife turned to other chores"

She is talking about a 15 month old baby who would not play with what SHE wanted him to play with!

"On the bare legs or bottom, switch him eight or ten licks; then, while waiting for the pain to subside, speak calm words of rebuke. If the crying turns to a true, wounded, submissive whimper, you have conquered; he has submitted his will. If the crying is still defiant, protesting and other than a response to pain, spank him again"

Let's beat that child in to submission! That's exactly why we have children isn't it? Pah!

"One particularly painful experience of nursing mothers is the biting baby. My wife did not waste time finding a cure. When the baby bit, she pulled hair (an alternative has to be sought for baldheaded babies)"

Yes, pull a newborn's hair! That'll teach him!

[FeegleFion]

LackingEnergy I definitely SWYS, however, saying something is based I something else doesn't mean it's even remotely the same.

For example we've all heard about and some of you may have been unlucky enough to have seen spoof movies.

Now just because 'Hot Shots' is based on 'Top Gun' etc. that doesn't mean it's anything like it's inspiration nor that it makes a joke of the original.

That may be oversimplified but my exhausted brain is fuzzy (teething, not sleeping baby) and it was the least taxing of analogies that I could come up with without giving myself brain freeze

[BinarySolo]

I might be wrong here, but I don't think the bible graphically describe what size stick to use or to pull the hair of a breast feeding infant. They also recommend hitting children with strimmer wire as it 'fits in your purse or pocket' and when older to use plastic tubing.

I can see how the book was directly linked to the children's deaths as it basically tells parents to continue beating the child until the whimper in pain and submission rather than in anger and to use any means necessary including sitting on the child.

How is that not abuse?

[HardlyMotherTheresa]

The book is horrible. What on earth are Amazon playing at selling it?

I am about to sign your petition, OP.

[LackingEnergy]

The Wright Stuff were saying that a lot of this book is based on the bible. So based on that there is no point in trying to ban it since the source will still be on sale IYSWIM

[HerculePoirotsTache]

I've just signed and shared on FB too.

[BinarySolo]

I've signed and shared on fb.

Just for clarity, it is illegal to hit children in Scotland and in uk law you can use 'reasonable physical punishment' but must not leave a mark. As some one said up thread, it's highly unlikely you can hit with a stick and not leave a mark.

I do think this book could be potentially damaging by encouraging and condoning abuse. I'd be happy to see it entirely banned. Just because someone has written their vile ideology and published it as a book, shouldn't automatically be granted some sort of sacred status. Again as others have said, if the book advocated sexual abuse would it be worthy of censorship?

Apparently there are 4 deaths in the US that have been linked to this book.

[FeegleFion]

I'm sorry that I've not been able to come back to this thread in the past few days. My DS is teething and is very irritable and clingy, so I've been otherwise occupied.

I've not caught up with all posts, yet. I will go back and see how the discussion has progressed but I wanted to post this first.

Sheshelob you know you like me a lot more than just a little Has the blog that we discussed been posted yet?

Grimma I made a very conscience decision to liken one to the other, in this instance (physical abuse to sexual abuse).

I wholeheartedly agree that in a wide and varied range of alternative circumstances, we would be unable to, or at the very least, hard pushed to draw any similarities in the perpetrators motivation for the 'type(s)' of abuse inflicted on their victim but there are sex offenders who specifically enjoy sadistic violence and get sexual gratification from inflicting physical pain on their victims and it was this type of offender I was referring to.

The fact that this book suggests using implements (switch) is, IMHO, an invitation for sex offenders whose tastes are for S&M to find (potentially) new methods.

[Lilka]

I've still signed the petition though!

[Lilka]

oops, cut off

• I hate that it's been linked with the murders of real children. It makes me sick

[Lilka]

I hate that book and what's in it. I hate that it's been linked

Amazon do not care. They also sell Marquis De Sade, at least one of his books is an entire book contains almost nothing but lengthy stories about child sexual abuse and raping children as young as 5 (culminating in sexual torture and murder of more children) clearly for the readers titillation and enjoyment. If they sell THAT they'll sell anything, including the Pearls

[GrimmaTheNome]

Hoiky - you may be right that Amazon don't care what they sell. However, adult fiction isn't the same thing as a book which is instructing people on how to physically abuse their kids. We may not like what other people get off on, but that's their business. Safeguarding kids requires society at large to be responsible.

[HoikyPoiky]

I haven't read all the posts, sorry.

I am afraid Amazon won't care. The sell Anais Nin's 'Delta of Venus'. An erotic book containing short stories covering a range of disgusting subjects INCLUDING child pornography.

For example one of the stories is about voyeuristic priests and a young boy being gang-bang sodomised by his classmates.

This is a book written to be 'erotic' Readers are meant to get off on it!

Amazon are happy to sell it

I don't think they care what they sell.

[CrapBag]

Can't see why anyone would object to this book not being sold on Amazon even if it can't be banned. Like someone said, it does actually encourage parents to break our law on hitting children.

Both petitions very gladly signed.

[acebaby]

Interesting to see/infer that the amazon page on this book has been hacked. I won't buy the book as I don't want to give the authors royalties, but the preview alone is enough for me to sign the petition and complain to amazon.

[bemybebe]

bumping this for you OP - please complain to amazon people!

[missfliss]

FeegleFion i heart you!

Godwins Law (from Wikipedia)
Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is an assertion made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin said that, given enough time, in any online discussion?regardless of topic or scope?someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.

Although in one of its early forms Godwin's law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[4] the law is now often applied to any threaded online discussion, such as forums, chat rooms and blog comment threads, and has been invoked for the inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches.[5] The law is sometimes invoked prescriptively to mark the end of a discussion when a Nazi analogy is made, with the writer who made the analogy being considered to have lost the argument.

[missfliss]

cajadelamemoria - to clarify i mean the selling and promotion of the book.

Making a book available for sale on their website means it appears automatically in topic charts, mailings with similiar titles and will be readily found ('searchable') so with amazon sale and promotion go hand in hand, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Also amazons own policies about what they allow for sale, mean that the very act of selling it means it has in the eyes of the consumer been 'rubber stamped' as suitable for general consumption and legitmises the content even further.

Part of the argument is that the contents of the book contravene amazon's own guidelines as to what they will and won't sell.

The fact that the NSPCC and Barnados have seperately asked amazon not to list the title should also be considered.

[GrimmaTheNome]

I sometimes think we make a bit of a holy cow out of books.

Sure, in the vast majority of cases censorship is wrong - political ideas etc should be allowed however much we disagree with them. But this sort of book seems to me to be essentially a tool for abusing children. We wouldn't expect any responsible retailer to sell physical instruments designed to hurt children - so what is the difference?

I also think that maybe we shouldn't make such a distinction between sexual and other forms of physical abuse.

[CajaDeLaMemoria]

(Not that I disagree. And the Daniel Pelka story was truly horrific, what a poor child. There just aren't words.

From a legal perspective, though, this is an interesting issue. If I can understand both sides well enough, I may quiz some lawyers if I see them)

[CajaDeLaMemoria]

Missfliss - Do Amazon promote the book?

You need to be really clear about what you are asking of them, I think.

So are you asking that they stop promoting the book, or that they stop selling it?

[bemybebe]

"Godwin's Law"

Brilliant.

[missfliss]

OK - last time i am going to say this - i am NOT petitioning for a ban.

i am merely asking a retailer to be responsible and not promote a book encouraging adult caregivers to physically abuse babies and young children.

make sense?

Still in doubt - read the news, read about what happened to little Daniel Pelka and please consider why ANYTHING that endorses the abuse of children has no place being accepted or tolerated in our society.

[Sheshelob]

Feegle! I had no idea what Godwin's Law was until I googled it. I shall now be using it CONSTANTLY. I also may love you just a little bit.

[Thumbwitch]

I have signed both petitions. If it were on lend in my local library, I would petition them to have it removed. If it were on sale in my local bookshop, I would petition them to remove it from sale.

I don't advocate banning the publishing of such books, but they shouldn't be given any level of advertising, nor be easily available, IMO. Disgusting really that anyone would consider it appropriate to publish it, but hey. Their choice - or it could have been privately published. Still no excuse to give it a wider audience.

[FeegleFion]

Actually, complex you automatically lose the argument here. Godwins Law

xylem I made no personal attack on you nor any other pp.

I merely stated an observation and how I, personally, felt.

This book promotes and actively encourages parents and carers of children, and small babies, to physically abuse their dependants, using implements!

I never suggested that the book was an illegal publication, I merely pointed to the instruction it delivers would result in illegal acts being performed.

I have spent some time reading CPS code or more accurately the 'checklist' they must satisfy before proceeding with cases brought in relation to the Obscene Publications Act and have, interestingly, found my way to the Legislation Act website and believe these types of books sit very comfortably with at least one of the criteria for bringing a case.

" 1 Test of obscenity.

(1)For the purposes of this Act an article shall be deemed to be obscene if its effect or (where the article comprises two or more distinct items) the effect of any one of its items is, if taken as a whole, such as to tend to deprave and corrupt persons who are likely, having regard to all relevant circumstances, to read, see or hear the matter contained or embodied in it.

(2)In this Act “article” means any description of article containing or embodying matter to be read or looked at or both, any sound record, and any film or other record of a picture or pictures.

(3)For the purposes of this Act a person publishes an article who—
(a)distributes, circulates, sells, lets on hire, gives, or lends it, or who offers it for sale or for letting on hire; or
(b)in the case of an article containing or embodying matter to be looked at or a record, shows, plays or projects it [F1, or, where the matter is data stored electronically, transmits that data.]: . . . F2
[F3(4)For the purposes of this Act a person also publishes an article to the extent that any matter recorded on it is included by him in a programme included in a programme service.

(5)Where the inclusion of any matter in a programme so included would, if that matter were recorded matter, constitute the publication of an obscene article for the purposes of this Act by virtue of subsection (4) above, this Act shall have effect in relation to the inclusion of that matter in that programme as if it were recorded matter.

(6)In this section “programme” and “programme service” have the same meaning as in the Broadcasting Act 1990.]

I'm quite and extremely disappointed in anyone who doesn't identify these type of publications as akin to child sex abuse publications.

We all agree or I presume and very much hope we all agree that the publication and distribution of child pornography is unacceptable and as such it is illegal to possess any form of media which would be deemed indecent in relation to this, so please explain why these types of books shouldn't be censored ?

I have no doubt, at all, I'm my mind that child sex offenders who have a taste for or even just a curiosity for S&M would find their own uses for such books.

This petition isn't only about petitioning Amazon, it's also about Safeguarding Children and making some noise to say child abuse and exploitation, of any kind, will not be tolerated within our society.