to want Amazon to withdraw a book endosing beating children from sale?

[missfliss]

Dear Mumsnetters,

This is my first post here, so please be kind. And yes, I have joined specifically because of this issue ? but I?m sure I?ll stick around too and have signed up to be a product tester etc.

A friends Facebook post today made me aware of the following title for sale on Amazon UK which advocates and endorses the beating of children ? from as young as 4 months old ? as a ?discipline tool?.

The book is called ?How to train Up a Child? and I have quoted some bits from it below.

I realise amazon aren?t breaking the law by selling it, but cannot believe they have chosen to list it for sale ? and so I have started a petition to get it withdrawn.

Thanks for reading,

Missfliss

Here?s the book:
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1892112000/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1BEG0RMJC314P2KS4VYD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=358549207&pf_rd_i=468294

here?s my petition
www.change.org/petitions/amazon-uk-withdraw-a-title-which-endorses-beating-children-from-4-months-of-age

here?s the quotes:
Quotes from the book:

"At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree"

So hitting a 4 month old with a willow sprig is an acceptable form of punishment?

"After about ten acts of stubborn defiance, followed by ten switchings, he surrendered his will to one higher than himself. In rolling the wheel, he did what every accountable human being must do-he humbled himself before the "highest" and admitted that his interests are not paramount. After one begrudged roll, my wife turned to other chores"

She is talking about a 15 month old baby who would not play with what SHE wanted him to play with!

"On the bare legs or bottom, switch him eight or ten licks; then, while waiting for the pain to subside, speak calm words of rebuke. If the crying turns to a true, wounded, submissive whimper, you have conquered; he has submitted his will. If the crying is still defiant, protesting and other than a response to pain, spank him again"

Let's beat that child in to submission! That's exactly why we have children isn't it? Pah!

"One particularly painful experience of nursing mothers is the biting baby. My wife did not waste time finding a cure. When the baby bit, she pulled hair (an alternative has to be sought for baldheaded babies)"

Yes, pull a newborn's hair! That'll teach him!

Hi - and with apologies for sounding so forceful (but i care about this a lot so i'm going tospeak plainly) in actual fact - i think you have missed the point. In a really fundamental way.

I am asking amazon precisely beacuse they are large and the most transparent retailer in terms of breadth of range and availability. They account for over 70% of book sales and ebook sales in the UK alone.

The key word here is ASKING. as in, a lot of your customers are disgusted by this title - if you care what your customers think - please remove it. This is consumer action not the letter of the law.

We have said several times that amazon aren't breaking any laws by retailing this book.

we are simply saying that it is appropriate to ask them to not stock the book, and as i have also said - there are several precedents.

and as an NB just because the term the authors have invented is 'switch' doesnt change the fact they just mean HIT.

amazon arent obliged to sell this title - they wouldnt be breaching any laws by simply NOT selling it, so i dont get that argument at all i'm afraid.

I'm simply saying that if enough of their customers care, and would prefer they didnt, then £ speaks more than anything else to a company like amazon. They famously never eneter into discussions in PR or the press to defend their position (i.e. tax avoidance).

again i'll mention the other titles they have withdrawn for similiar reasons - the 'grooming' title, and the one promoting travel to Burma/

Signed and shared the petition.

Thanks for brining it to my attention.

Wow, have just had a look at their website. I feel it's quite telling that the whole of the homepage is about getting money out of people rather than spreading a Christian message..
I wonder if Amazon would sell a book that advocated a husband hitting his wife to make her obey? (Actually I wonder if anyone would tbh...), why just settle for physically abusing children?

I wonder if Amazon would sell a book that advocated a husband hitting his wife to make her obey? (Actually I wonder if anyone would tbh...),

apart from the Quran - which obviously civilised people interpret as not really meaning that - in the same way that the majority of Christians nowadays take 'spare the rod and spoil the child' and the other similar verses as something to be read metaphorically.

Again, I will say this. I agree with you in theory - I don't like their "training" methods either and I hate that it's available to people in book form.

I haven't missed the point. Look, let me explain. I was spanked with a belt (as well as other things) as a child. I really do understand how awful this book is, and I'd like to think it is not in the mainstream of books bought.

But this is important too:

I don't think YABU, but where will your crusade end? These things can snowball and before long you could be taking on every book seller and then moving onto the next thing you disapprove of.
Nobody with half a brain would buy the book if this is some small consolation.

I really dont think we are talking the same language.

i get that you agree that the book is wrong, but i dont think you have acknowledged some of the responses to those arguments ive already posted as to where we fundamentally differ.

But this is important too:
I don't think YABU, but where will your crusade end? These things can snowball and before long you could be taking on every book seller and then moving onto the next thing you disapprove of.
Nobody with half a brain would buy the book if this is some small consolation. >There HAVE been books that have been banned or taken off shelves by retailers - because they were advocating breaking the law. This book walks a very fine line and shields itself with the freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Do I find it morally repugnant? Of course I do! But I wary of mass efforts to pull books from shelves. As another poster mentioned, if they took all books that advocated spanking a child off the shelves, they'd have to remove the bible as well.

again - you keep bringing up the word 'ban' not me. And actually you are wrong, the books i mentioned are recent amazon cases which came about because of consumer pressure, not beacuse the books themselves had broken any laws. To put it another way, if enough people were say anti M&S stocking Fur Coats and campaigned via PETA for them not to sell them any more, and M&S actually listened and chose to be seen to care what their customers thought even if they knew they could buy a fur coat elsewhere and it wasnt illegal? whats the difference?
The religious book part isnt a valid comparison. The BIBLE is principally a work of theology, it is composed of several books and the there is a big difference between the bible representing the societal norms of how life was lived two thousand years ago in Palestine and Rome, and the use of fables to illustrate morality (which is very looseley open to interpretation by the reader / interpretor / or translator) ? and a full on instructive manual on parenting, where the fundamental hypothesis of the entire book is that it is desirable to train children into submission using a stick.

well said missfliss :)

I take your point Grimma, but the Bible and the Quran were both written at times when beating your family was considered the norm and the right thing to do so it wasn't really metaphorical.
My real issue is that now, in these supposedly enlightened times there are people that take a verse written thousands of years ago and run away with it, making it seem like a desirable practice (which could be said of religion in general I suppose).
There's a view that goes hand in hand with the type of parenting pushed in that book, if you look at the bundle the other books promote it. I had a friend who followed it so I know a little about it. Taken from the book of Proverbs it apparently gives a wife instructions on how to be 'good' and follow her husband in all ways. Modest dressing and giving up control to the 'head of the family'. Children are supposed to be biddable, boys to be boys, girls are girls and everyone will conform to standards set down in the Bible (I know very little of the Quran so I can't really use examples from there). I saw an intelligent independent woman become a shadow of herself and move away from most of the people that loved her because she chose to follow this way. Her primary goal was to have as many children as possible and I have no doubt that she would follow the book to the letter
Sorry OP not many things really make me angry but this does and I hijacked x

you keep bringing up the word 'ban' not me. And actually you are wrong, the books i mentioned are recent amazon cases which came about because of consumer pressure, not beacuse the books themselves had broken any laws.

Flob - yes, I know. Its such a shame that some fundamentalists think those old books should be literally applied today. So sorry for your friend.

So yes, the bible could come under fire as well
Not seriously - because there are so many ways to interpret it, and there's so much other stuff in it. Whereas these books are sold as prescriptive parenting guides - no wiggle room.

its only you who says they have been alienated, please show me where you have been 'attacked'? All i have done is defend my views with counter arguments - what else would i do in a debate??

yes there have been books that have been banned - of course there have - but i'm not talking about a ban. On the other note, yes, i see your point.

thanks for the wishes of good luck - i appreciate that (genuinely)

People can get downright fanatical about this kind of thing, which is why it can be so dangerous to start. Damn those bastards getting so worked up about a book promoting child abuse. They really need to keep a lid on it don't they and go and get worked up about something a bit more important

Have to admit I'm confused as to how Amazon get away with selling it in this country if it is illegal to hit a child here, doesn't it leave them open to a lawsuit if a child is badly injured as a result of the parent following the advice? Couldn't it be argued that Amazon are complicit?
Companies like this try to be so careful about covering their arses, I'm surprised they haven't thought about it tbh..

"There HAVE been books that have been banned or taken off shelves by retailers - because they were advocating breaking the law."

This book advocates hitting an older child with a belt or a larger tree branch.

British law states that it is illegal to hit a child so as to leave a mark or a bruise.

I defy you to hit a child with a large tree branch without leaving a mark.

In other words, this book is advocating breaking British law and should not be sold in this country.

QED.

One of the quotes I read was about how to cause pain (to a

This book advocates hitting an older child with a belt or a larger tree branch.

British law states that it is illegal to hit a child so as to leave a mark or a bruise.

I defy you to hit a child with a large tree branch without leaving a mark.

In other words, this book is advocating breaking British law and should not be sold in this country.

Contact the appropriate authorities and have it pulled.

who are the appropriate authorities? ... I don't know ... maybe if you contacted the NSPCC they would be able to help, missfliss?

NSPCC and www.barnardos.org.uk is a good start. I will call the latter...

Actually just called NCPSS (their tel number was on the Barnardo's website)...

They are aware of the book and did make a very strong complaint about it being sold in the UK. Their position is clear. It advocates illegal actions against children and as such it is illegal to publish in the UK or act on it in the UK. However, it is not illegal to sell it in the UK.

They prefer this book not to be advertised widely. But they will be very grateful for people to make strong complaints to Amazon direct. So, here we go.

sorry been away from desk - no reason not to try those routes too. dont mind how the book is withdrawn, as long as it is . will hope external pressure from charities as well as consumers will convince amazon

Twitter? Do they take notice of tweets?

Twitter might serve to publicize it, unfortunately.

Have tweeted, no hashtag, have linked to the book though.Make sure you look for Amazon UK if you tweet.