to want Amazon to withdraw a book endosing beating children from sale?

[missfliss]

Dear Mumsnetters,

This is my first post here, so please be kind. And yes, I have joined specifically because of this issue ? but I?m sure I?ll stick around too and have signed up to be a product tester etc.

A friends Facebook post today made me aware of the following title for sale on Amazon UK which advocates and endorses the beating of children ? from as young as 4 months old ? as a ?discipline tool?.

The book is called ?How to train Up a Child? and I have quoted some bits from it below.

I realise amazon aren?t breaking the law by selling it, but cannot believe they have chosen to list it for sale ? and so I have started a petition to get it withdrawn.

Thanks for reading,

Missfliss

Here?s the book:
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1892112000/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1BEG0RMJC314P2KS4VYD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=358549207&pf_rd_i=468294&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

here?s my petition
www.change.org/petitions/amazon-uk-withdraw-a-title-which-endorses-beating-children-from-4-months-of-age


here?s the quotes:
Quotes from the book:

"At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree"

So hitting a 4 month old with a willow sprig is an acceptable form of punishment?

"After about ten acts of stubborn defiance, followed by ten switchings, he surrendered his will to one higher than himself. In rolling the wheel, he did what every accountable human being must do-he humbled himself before the "highest" and admitted that his interests are not paramount. After one begrudged roll, my wife turned to other chores"

She is talking about a 15 month old baby who would not play with what SHE wanted him to play with!

"On the bare legs or bottom, switch him eight or ten licks; then, while waiting for the pain to subside, speak calm words of rebuke. If the crying turns to a true, wounded, submissive whimper, you have conquered; he has submitted his will. If the crying is still defiant, protesting and other than a response to pain, spank him again"

Let's beat that child in to submission! That's exactly why we have children isn't it? Pah!

"One particularly painful experience of nursing mothers is the biting baby. My wife did not waste time finding a cure. When the baby bit, she pulled hair (an alternative has to be sought for baldheaded babies)"

Yes, pull a newborn's hair! That'll teach him!

[CajaDeLaMemoria]

This is a tough issue.

I signed the initial petition a while ago, because I can't stand to think of children being abused.

But, I think the arguments that a book will not make a parent abuse their child are very valid. Most people would read that and think "What the hell?!", they wouldn't test the methods. If they do think that pulling a babies hair or spanking their child is acceptable, they likely would have done it anyway. These aren't creative physical punishments designed to avoid detection, or to cause more pain - they are the same punishments that were used way back when, and that are used by abusive parents.

Amazon are between a rock and a hard place because you can self publish there, and because they have laws to respect.

Perhaps the better petition would involve having the people who wrote the book investigated and punished for child abuse?

I don't know. I do know that to make a difference, you'll need to think of how this can be dealt with. If it looks viable, more people will sign and it'll do better when it's debated. As it is, a lot of people will decide that you should be able to read anything you like in this country, and that we can think for ourselves and are not easily lead. More still will think that nothing can be done, that there is no legally fair solution. Work on that, and the extra 10k will come, I think.

[GrimmaTheNome]

But, I think the arguments that a book will not make a parent abuse their child are very valid

But it could provide justification in their warped minds for what they want to do and make a bad situation worse. And I'll bet the situation arises where one parent wants to beat and the other's instincts are screaming that its wrong but the abuser will produce this as evidence that its the right, even 'godly' thing to do.

[thebody]

vile vile vile, had already signed old petition.

very sad link.

[CajaDeLaMemoria]

But it could provide justification in their warped minds for what they want to do and make a bad situation worse. And I'll bet the situation arises where one parent wants to beat and the other's instincts are screaming that its wrong but the abuser will produce this as evidence that its the right, even 'godly' thing to do.

Good point, Grimma. For that reason, I'm glad I've signed it, and I hope it is withdrawn from sale.

[xylem8]

I don't agree witgh physical punishment for children but neither do I agree with censorship

[xylem8]

650,000 copies have been sold

[SirChenjin]

This isn't about censorship - it's about asking a bookseller not to stock it.

[GrimmaTheNome]

SirChen - I was just about to post the exact same thing except instead of the final 'it' I had 'this vile product'.

Amazon should be ashamed to be making money from it.

[PeriodMath]

xylem8, so you don't approve of censoring violence towards children? How about child porn? Are you ok with that being censored?

[Oblomov]

I object to your petition and I also think it will not be effective.
I have come across books such as the one you suggest.

I went to see one of the top Paed's. My son failed the 'theory of mind test' miserably. Yet this paed still recommened the James Dobson book:

"Some strong-willed children absolutely demand to be spanked, and their wishes should be granted. . . [T]wo or three stinging strokes on the legs or buttocks with a switch are usually sufficient to emphasize the point, 'You must obey me.'"
From The Strong-Willed Child, pp. 53-4.

I cried and begged for help. I got none.
Finally, years later, my son was diagnosed Autistic. Aspergers.
This Paed retired. I never saw him again.
So, I know ALL about poor book recommendations.

BUT, there are loads of books out there, that suggest this kind of thing.

I can not see what your suggestions, will achieve.

[possum18]

I'm shocked and disheartened that Amazon would sell this book in the first place, let alone require a petition to remove it. Clearly the importance of profit outweighs their CSR.
I have signed larger petition and wish you well.

[GrimmaTheNome]

Oblomov, I'm curious why you object?

If on the pragmatic grounds that there are lots of such books so a petition against one is ineffectual, the larger petition is not specifically against one but is titled:

Amazon: Refuse to carry books which advocate the physical abuse of children.

[Trigglesx]

I can't imagine they will agree to that blanket statement. I think it would need to be more specific IMO to even stand a chance of getting through.

Advocate is a broad term, really. Is this fiction books, that contain child abuse that someone might copy? Nonfiction biographies or autobiographies? Self-help?

Almost any book could be said to advocate something - I think it's too vague anyway.

[GrimmaTheNome]

The details of the petition are more specific.

[extracrunchy]

It's the publishing house that really needs investigating. Wtf??!

[SconeInSixtySeconds]

I have tried to think how to post how awful this is for the last few minutes but I can't.

Poor poor children whose parents think this is helpful. Poor little babies.

[MoominsYonisAreScary]

I've signed and shared on fb

[woowoo22]

I knew which book you would be talking about just by reading the thread title. Debbie and Michael Pearl adhere to the "Christian Patriarchy" movement in the US, ie the man is the representation of God in the home and women and children must fully submit to him. The Duggars (19 kids and counting) believe this too. They practice blanket training on their babies.

The baby is sat on a blanket. The adult holds out a favourite toy, which the baby then crawls towards. They receive a whack with a flexible ruler every time they reach for the toy. Eventually the baby "learns" to stay put. Ostensibly this is done so the mother can go and do chores without the baby moving from the rug.

My DS is 4 months old and the thought of ANYONE doing this to him makes me sick to my stomach. These people are deluded abusers, plain and simple.

The blog No Longer Quivering has more info. It is hard reading.

[missfliss]

Thanks so much everyone

I understand not everyone agrees, but I'm mystified someone objects to the very existence of the petition..

This isn't censorship, it's about requesting amazon act responsibly in relation to what they sell. There are precedents.

If this was a manual ( and to be clear this is a reference book on parenting not a work of fiction) on how to discipline women or black people by beating would it be censorship to ask a global retailer not to sell it?

Aso just to add, the publisher is the "ministry" of the authors themselves... I.e. self published.

[xylem8]

'This isn't about censorship - it's about asking a bookseller not to stock it.'

..but doesn't it amount to the same thing?

[mrsminiverscharlady]

I was actually recommended this book (and others in the same series) by some friends when ds1 was a baby. She is a GP and apparently thought it was very good Needless to say I threw it in the bin when I started reading it.

[McNewPants2013]

Signed all the petitions, this book is factual

50 SOG is fiction.

[missfliss]

No, censorship is not the same as asking a retailer not to stock something.

There is a very big difference

[GrimmaTheNome]

woowoo - yes... the 'books often bought with this' add up to that package.

xylem - I don't think it is censorship - amazon isn't a monopoly. But as someone else said - we do censor other forms of child abuse. Sexual violence against children is rightly taboo. This is recommending physical and mental violence to be committed by the very people who should be protecting the child.... I'm not sure I can think of a good reason why it shouldn't be censored.

[SirChenjin]

It's not censorship in the true sense of the word, no (although I tend to believe that anything that encourages violence against children shouldn't be polluting the printing press...)