To refuse to allow my 12 yo DD to travel unaccompanied?

[ItsDecisionTime]

As part of a pending contact order, ExP who lives in the USA, is asking that our 12 year old DD travels as an unaccompanied minor on her flights from the UK to US (to save him the time and cost of collecting her). It goes against all my parenting instincts on the basis that if anything had to happen on those flights, it would be everyone for themselves. I know people do allow their kids to travel alone but for me, that's just lazy parenting and something I'd only consider in an absolute emergency. She has only just started going into our town on her own but only when she is with a friend. Personally, I can't even contemplate what kind of father would even push for it in court when he knows I'm so set against it.

1. It is ridiculous to say a 12 year old shouldn't travel as an unaccompanied minor and that children doing this are at risk and their parents should be reported to social services. Utterly ridiculous. And the post about somebody's blood running cold at the though of a 12 year old girl alone with 100s of adults is just bonkers.

1. However, it is not ridiculous to think a 12 year old shouldn't necessarily have to fly out to the USA -alone or not- to spend time with a father she has had minimal contact with for the past 6 years. Unless she wants to.

What seeker said. On both counts

So, the real issue is that you are (quite rightly) angry with her father for calling SS, when you had left your DD with your friend to babysit. And now, he wants her to, in effect, be minded by strangers to you, and as far as you are concerned, that is the same thing that he had complained to SS about.

But, he was unreasonable to call SS under those circumstances. And you are being just as unreasonable to say that your DD shouldn't fly unattended. Two wrongs, as they used to tell us at school, don't make a right.

You are focussing on the unaccompanied flight, and that is detracting from your real concern that your DD does not want to spend this time with her father, under these circumstances.

As others have said, you would be laughed out of court for saying that allowing a 12yo to travel unaccompanied is lazy parenting. You may well be listened to if you focus on the fact that your DD does not want to go to the USA for contact with her father, and perhaps a better arrangement would be for him to come here, to enable him to build a better relationship with her, before such a thing happens.

"So, the real issue is that you are (quite rightly) angry with her father for calling SS, when you had left your DD with your friend to babysit. And now, he wants her to, in effect, be minded by strangers to you, and as far as you are concerned, that is the same thing that he had complained to SS about.

But, he was unreasonable to call SS under those circumstances. And you are being just as unreasonable to say that your DD shouldn't fly unattended. Two wrongs, as they used to tell us at school, don't make a right."

Did I miss something? Did this happen?

I think that the sensible course is to explain to the father that a DC isn't baggage and before she makes a long trip away from home she needs to get to know him and build a relationship.

It is a pity that the issue was clouded with the flying, which is perfectly safe and perfectly reasonable- you can really tell it is so because rarely do you have so many people on MN saying YABU- with that number you can be sure YABU!
You can discount the person who says 'their blood runs cold at the thought of a 12 yr old alone in the plane with 100s of adults'! What on earth does she think someone is going to do?! And why would the rest sit back and let them? (Truly bonkers!)

seeker, it's in the OPs 03.16 post.

OP, what is happening here is that you and your ex are getting so caught up in your personal strife that you are both losing sight of what other people would consider reasonable

only a loon would call SS for leaving a child with a reliable person not known to both parents- the fact that your ex behaved like a loon has not shifted the boundaries for reasonable behaviour: it has merely demonstrated that he is capable of behaving like a loon

letting a 12yo fly unaccompanied is something most people would not consider unreasonable either

(Let's face it, in most plane crashes there would be very little anyone could do to save your dd even if she was surrounded by relatives on all sides. To put it brutally, if you drop out of the sky you usually die. In a more controlled emergency landing with a chance of survival it is the job of the cabin crew to see to anyone who needs extra assistance and cabin crew are well trained- they would be doing that job.)

You two need to focus away from your own feelings of injury and think about your dd. Does she want to go? Is she ready to go? How does she feel about the journey?

As others have said, you would be laughed out of court for saying that allowing a 12yo to travel unaccompanied is lazy parenting. You may well be listened to if you focus on the fact that your DD does not want to go to the USA for contact with her father, and perhaps a better arrangement would be for him to come here, to enable him to build a better relationship with her, before such a thing happens.

This.

OP - you have a choice whether to try and make your point in court and try to convince them that your parenting style is the only right one, or you can support your DD to express her views to the court SW and negotiate a contact schedule that allows her to build a relationship with her Dad in a way she is comfortable with.

You haven't answered two key questions though - has your DD already been seen by CAFCASS, and which parent was it that relocated their home?

I think you should drop the flying, which is a red herring, and address the real issues.

Might I add that just because a child states that they do not want to do something does not mean its true, it might mean she is worried or anxious but who is to say that she won't enjoy it when she gets there? If you are anxious or not keen on the trip your daughter will take your lead and pick up on your anxiety. As a parent you need to be positive and encouraging and reassure your daughter the trip will be fine.

It is perfectly reasonable to suggest she initially spends some time here with her Father but be honest with yourself, do you think your objections are about her or about how you feel about her Father? No doubt you will miss her while she is away. We have all felt that aching heart feeling but most of us just get on with it for the child's sake.

Whether people think the OP is BU or not, she's made up her mind.

The real issue, IMHO, is that the daughter doesn't want to go. Accompanies or not.

That's what should be respected.

The flight is clouding the real issue.

And, sadly, the OP is letting it cloud the real issue, instead of listening to her daughter and agreeing she doesn't have to go if she doesn't want to.

Yabvu and judgy, it is not lazy parenting at all, it's a long and expensive flight, hardly 2 hours down the road . I used to go to boarding school where there were children from abroad there, and they used to fly as an unaccompanied minor. Many airlines have chaperone schemes which work very well

Reading your other posts, your dd has every right to not want to go, and should not have to if she does not want to. It does not sound like has made much effort to form a bond with dd and I get te impression he does not bother. Se is old enough to make her wishes known and gave them respected

But just because you don't agree with children travelling as unaccompanied minors does not make it wrong and for that Yabvvu

I think there are huge issues here. They appear to be parents at war. I wonder if DD could even voice an opinion that she wanted to go, if she does, because of upsetting her mother.
I think that OP and ex need to sort out a working partnership as parents before they decide anything.

Other issues aside.....

YABU, I first flew unaccompanied aged 7 on British Caledonian, I have very happy memories of those flights, I was spoilt rotten

OP - you just don't want her to see her father, do you?

How very mature you both sound tbh.

I wouldn't be letting either you or your ex husband on a plane without a responsible adult to look after the pair of you, but your daughter will be fine.

Forget about the unaccompanied flying- it's a red herring. The issue is that your daughter doesn't want to go and as parents your relationship has broken down. Put the flying to one side and try and solve the contact issue.

The UM thing is not the issue really, so I would stop making a big deal of it.

FWIW I did dozens of UM long haul (13hr) flights as a teen and preteen and it was fine. On the whole, most members of the general public are nice normal people. No one ever did anything unpleasant to me with the lights out.

Secondly, loads of people leave their very young children with people they don't know every day. In nurseries. No one calls SS. Honestly, to say you don't want your dd to fly UM because you would be putting her in danger from malevolent airline staff sounds silly. To say your dd doesn't want to go, or doesn't want to see her dad, or that you think her dad isn't responsible enough to take sole charge of her, are much more valid arguments.

Personally, I would find it far more ridiculous that an adult would pay for and do a return flight from the US to collect a 12yo than putting said 12yo on a flight as a UM.

Personally I think yanbu and i'm surprised at just how many people think you are tbh.

12 is still really young, I was a mature 12 yo but even I wouldn't have been comfortable on a long haul flight alone. I went on a train from where I live in Yorkshire to meet my Dad in London when I was 15 and that was the first time I travelled anywhere completely alone (without friends) and that was pretty scary actually and I was an independent girl in dr martens with a shaven head . So the thought of a long haul flight 3 years younger than I was makes me shudder a bit.

I can't understand people saying getting on a bus is more dangerous.. A 10/15 minute bus ride from one part of a city to another is more dangerous than travelling from one COUNTRY to another on a plane which you cannot get off if you need to? If anything were to happen on that flight- a fight, drunks getting lairy etc I can imagine that would be extremely frightening for a 12 yo without their parents protection and reassurance. Also what if she gets sick or she feels really anxious at any point? Even at 12 you'd want your parents there..

Overall I wouldn't want my 12 yo going on a flight even to Paris alone let alone the USA so yanbu AT ALL. Plus it doesn't sound like she's keen on going anyway. I'd tell her F he either comes to get her or he pays for a ticket for you to go with OR (heaven forbid) he comes to visit her here.

" A 10/15 minute bus ride from one part of a city to another is more dangerous than travelling from one COUNTRY to another on a plane which you cannot get off if you need to? If anything were to happen on that flight- a fight, drunks getting lairy etc I can imagine that would be extremely frightening for a 12 yo without their parents protection and reassurance."

Now that really is silly! I would much rather my 12 year old was safely on a plane with trained, responsible people looking after her if a fight broke out ( really? What sort of flights do you go on!) than getting off a bus halfway through a journey because something similar happened ! And what is so extra dangerous to be travelling from one country to another?

When I was 11 I travelled to Thailand and back 3 times a year on my own.

Children at boarding schools all across the UK routinely do long flights unaccompanied. Airlines have special arrangements made to look after them before, during and after the flight.

I fly a lot (at one point I was in the US 2 weeks a month plus EU flights), and as a lone woman frequent flyer I've spent a lot of time sat near/next to the UM group - they obviously have a seating policy that surrounds them with families and women.
They are very well looked after, and a crew member is seated with them during take off/landing, and I assume in an emergency.

I think travelling as an UM is much lower risk than going into town with her friends