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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be shocked and frustrated with the Islamophobia that's bursting out all over Facebook today?

672 replies

Seekingsense · 22/05/2013 21:38

Following the awful tragedy in Woolwich today.

I have seen everything from "We want our England back" to "Kick out all the foreigners" to "Islamic infiltration of the UK" etc. I have paraphrased as some of the stuff is so horrible I do not want to repeat it.

This is from normal everyday people and lots of them. Is this really what people think?

I, like most people am horrified by what has happened to this young soldier in Woolwich, but why is everyone so quick to blame an entire religion for it and to jump on the 'kick out all immigrants' bandwagon.

What can we do about it? Ignore, delete, post, report?

OP posts:
gordyslovesheep · 24/05/2013 18:05

Only in the same way Christianity is wholly responsible for the action of people who murder family planning doctors or picket funerals somebloke

and for the LOVE OF CHEESE it's mUslim

gordyslovesheep · 24/05/2013 18:05

epic fail Grin

Feelingood · 24/05/2013 19:40

Can I stress that these are not my views re flags etc all I'm saying is that some people see/hear this sort of stuff and take it as fact. Every one perceives things in a different way.

Some people seem to think because you use examples to make a point to explain the behaviours/ beliefs of others it makes you. Racist.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm · 24/05/2013 19:46

"So we were happy to fund the Taliban to kill and oppress Afghanis when it suited us"

Erm....no. We weren't. We funded the mujahhideen to kill and oppress the occupying Soviet Army . They are not the same as the Taliban.

lottieandmia · 24/05/2013 21:28

'The things that worry me more is the lack of English speaking in some schools which stiffles learning for English speaking students.'

Utter rubbish - where is your evidence for this?

The thing I find funny is the stupid urban myths trotted out by people who claim not to be racist but who are

Winterville, not Christmas
Muslims don't tolerate christians
etc, etc

Don't you know people have been saying this crap for years and it is a load of nonsense. Shame on you for perpetuating it.

HoppinMad · 24/05/2013 21:55

Can I just ask how is it the fault of Muslims or other minorities if a particular council or whichever PC organisation responsible, chooses to rename Christmas or Easter. Ffs it makes no difference to us, seriously. We have our own festivals which we are happy to celebrate and each to their own. We simply enjoy the holidays, the time off work/school.

Its stupid trivial stuff like this which fuels the bigots' hatred towards minorities. Blame your PC councillors etc not us. We couldn't give a rat's arse. Sorry I am starting to get angry now at recent comments so will probably go now as I have said what I had to say previously.

ChocolateCakePlease · 24/05/2013 21:59

I can think of 4 infant schools in my area where kids who struggle with english being a problem. It is not myths like winter festivals and flags. Just yesterday my friend was telling me the school her dd goes to is 60% have polish as their first language and how there is a real language barrier and communication problems with staff and alot of pupils.

It is a very real problem. A lady in my dc class is childminder and says of problems with children who can do not speak much english or none at all and sees it as a problem because being polish herself she speaks to her children in both english and polish and made sure they spoke good english to start school.

It is not racist ffs to express concern about children not knowing english when they are entering an english school.

ChocolateCakePlease · 24/05/2013 22:06

Just the other day a gp on a gp thread named one of the reasons surgery got behind was due to a language barrier because it takes a lot longer to understand and get the message across to people with poor english. It wasn't the only reason they named but it was one.

If a child has little or no english the staff spend more time with those pupils because it takes longer to get the teaching across meaning less time for other pupils. That is a real issue, not dreamt up somewhere.

chickieno1 · 24/05/2013 22:18

Gp surgeries or clinics run late for a lot of different reasons so it seems a bit strange to blame it on language. What about people who are hard of hearing. Or people who have complex medical problems that take much longer to go through. To be honest people aren't all the same and some consultations need to be longer than others to be medically safe!

ChocolateCakePlease · 24/05/2013 22:27

If you read the post properly I said the gp explained language barrier wasn't the only reason but was one of the factors.

Moominsarehippos · 24/05/2013 22:28

DSs school is like that. He is one of 4 kids in his year who speak english as their first language and two of the 4 are bi-lingual.

Some kids do turn up at nursery speaking very little english despite being born here. For a number of reasons the school is very heavily attended by kids of parents from another EU country. These parents and kids mix together, have nannies from the home country and don't speak english to their kids. The school offers the children the education system from that country. We've also had a smattering of kids from Russia, ME, Germany and Italy (although the Italians are fab for teaching their kids emglish).

The only issues we've had is that when a child can't make him/herself understood, they can act out and be disruptive (or complete bullies). They do calm down though. I don't blame them - I'd act out too if I couldn't communicate. The english teaching isn't as high standard as we'd like but we are both english grads, so that's probably just us. DS is very verbal, writes and speaks beautiful english. Sadly, although he has a beautiful accent when he speaks the majority language of the school, he hasn't picked up an awful lot of it (just the odd rude word).

Sallyingforth · 24/05/2013 22:32

To be fair chickieno1, the language difficulty sits on top of all those medical problems. The more difficult the symptoms and diagnosis, the longer the explanations/translations take and the more possibilities of misunderstanding.

Moominsarehippos · 24/05/2013 22:38

In our surgery an awful lot of folks have NHS translators with them. Our surgery often runs late - no matter what time your appointment. My last one was 8:30am and I still waited 30 mine to see the doctor.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 24/05/2013 23:08

Things
History of the Taliban
"The Taliban movement traces its origin to the Pakistani-trained mujahideen in northern Pakistan, during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. When Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq became President of Pakistan he feared that the Soviets were planning to invade Balochistan, Pakistan so he Akhtar Abdur Rahman. In the meantime, the United States and Saudi Arabia joined the struggle against the Soviet Union by providing all the funds"

The West did fund and arm the fighters that formed the Taliban so lets not pretend we didn't. Our hands are not entirely clean.

lottieandmia · 25/05/2013 00:41

'If a child has little or no english the staff spend more time with those pupils because it takes longer to get the teaching across meaning less time for other pupils. That is a real issue, not dreamt up somewhere.'

You are wrong, Chocolate and are basing your opinions on hearsay. There is no real evidence to support what you say at all, except people you 'know'. Have you any real information, in the way of studies that actually gives a shred of credibility to what you are saying?

As what you are essentially saying is that children who go to school with children whose parents migrated here have a worse education.

ThreeDudesOnABus · 25/05/2013 05:45

lottie Oh fgs. Of course these children who don't speak the language are disadvantaged and for the love of god stop whittering on about hearsay becasue it fits your political agenda.

The primary school my children attend is half local, half immigrant community. Due to the fact the immigrant community is "different" and integration not encouraged (by its own people!) the women do not work, ergo the children are raised at home by the SAHMs until they start school - and of course, do not learn English.

It is quite evident to anyone with sight that the playground is segregated by language, not colour.

It's time you start using your own eyes, brain and analytical skills to assess a situation rather than waiting for an equality-commission produced report or paper from the Guardian.

You ain't 'alf talking a lot of tosh.

ALL children in the class are put at a disadvantage due to the ridiculousness of the situation.

peacefuloptimist · 25/05/2013 06:23

'If a child has little or no english the staff spend more time with those pupils because it takes longer to get the teaching across meaning less time for other pupils. That is a real issue, not dreamt up somewhere.'

This is a load of absolute, made up rubbish. I've worked in a school where 40-50% of pupils spoke English as a second language. Trust me teachers do not spend more time on these pupils. Instead they get them to work with teaching assistants or specialist EAL (English as an Additional Language) teachers as much as they possibly can. Also I find these stories about schools full of immigrant children not able to speak English quite incredulous.

I grew up in a really multi-cultural area and the schools in that area had huge numbers of ethnic minorities but there were no issues with language. All the kids spoke English to a reasonably good standard even those whose parents were immigrants. Even if one of your parents doesn't speak English you can acquire the language from multiple sources e.g. older siblings, other relatives, watching tv, friends, using the computer, school. My DH came to the UK from another EU country when he was 9 and within a year he was speaking English fluently.

Yes more effort should be made by people to learn the language of the country they live in but don't assume that they haven't learnt it because they don't want to integrate. There could be multiple reasons why e.g. lack of confidence, lack of prior schooling, lack of money, lack of time, no local classes etc. I really cant see that this is as big a problem as your making it out to be. There are multiple solutions to these problems that don't require you to scapegoat and castigate all immigrants.

peacefuloptimist · 25/05/2013 07:27

'There are indeed gruesome parts of the Old Testament. However there is this thing called the New Testament that came after it and is full of peace and love type stuff. The religion basically follows the teaching of Christ, which is non-violent.'

My point was that if I only came across those particular verses I would have a very negative view of Christianity. Likewise some people and groups both amongst non-muslims and muslims only ever focus on or are exposed to verses in the Quran that are about war. So they become indoctrinated to think that's a primary focus of the religion when really it isn't. Islam is a holistic faith it deals with war, peace, love, hate, morality, the environment, family life, justice, tolerance, science etc. Somebody asked earlier what is the attraction of the faith to converts. Why don't you ask them? You will never get one answer. There are lots of different aspects of the religion that are attractive to different people. Why don't you read the Quran for yourself before you come to a conclusion about Islam and start propagating fallacies (like there is a great deal in the Koran which encourages war and violence) about it without having any knowledge.

'But oh noooooooo it was nothing to do with islam, they were just uhnhappy with British foreign policy'

Again, I absolutely, categorically deny that these people's actions were motivated or justified by Islam. See I don't look to people like Anjum Chaudhry or Omar Bakri to explain to me what Islam teaches (both men have had very little training or education in Islamic sciences). Instead I look to the actual theologians, scholars and clerics of the religion. People who actual have the education and authority to define and teach what Islam is and what it isn't. For example I just need to think of one particular verse in the Quran (though there are several) to totally refute that the Woolich bombings could be justified by Islam.

"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as just witnesses; and let not the enmity and hatred of others allow you to avoid justice. Be just: that is closer to piety; and fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do." [Al Maaidah: 8]

How have muslim scholars interpreted this verse.

Ibn Katheer a scholar from the 13th century explains:

?Do not let your hatred of a people cause you to be unjust to them, rather you must be just to everyone, friends or enemies, this is why Allah said: 'Be just: that is closer to piety' Meaning being just is closer to piety than being unjust.?

At Tabari, a renowned scholar of the 8th century comments:

?Do not let enmity between you and others cause you to be unjust in your dealings and rulings with them such that you oppress them due to the enmity that is between you.?

Al Qurtubi, a scholar from the 12th century states:

?This verse also proves that the disbelief of non-Muslims must not prevent us from being just to them...and it is not permissible for us to retaliate in the same manner, even if they kill our women and children and cause sorrow to befall us, it is not permissible for us to act likewise with the intention of making them feel grief and sorrow.?

These three Imams are respected authorities within the Islamic faith so their interpretation has weight. I know that EDL types like to pretend that its the Radical muslims that have interpreted the religion correctly and the moderates who don't actually understand it but then do you think that these radicals know more than the following group of contemporary muslim scholars who have completely condemned terrorist acts?

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt (established in 970 CE and reputed to be the oldest university for Islamic learning in the world):

?Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ? It?s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.?

Abdulaziz bin ?Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:

?Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur?an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth.?

Council of Saudi ?Ulama, fatwa of February 2003:

?What is happening in some countries from the shedding of the innocent blood and the bombing of buildings and ships and the destruction of public and private installations is a criminal act against Islam. ? Those who carry out such acts have the deviant beliefs and misleading ideologies and are responsible for the crime. Islam and Muslims should not be held responsible for such actions.?

Tahirul Qadri, head of the Awami Tehrik Party, Pakistan:

?Bombing embassies or destroying non-military installations like the World Trade Center is no jihad. ? they [terrorists] can't claim that their suicide bombings are martyrdom operations and that they become the heroes of the Muslim Umma [global brotherhood]. No, they become heroes of hellfire, and they are leading towards hellfire."

Organization of the Islamic Conference, Summit Conference:

?We are determined to fight terrorism in all its forms. ? Islam is the religion of moderation. It rejects extremism and isolation. There is a need to confront deviant ideology where it appears"

These are just a few and there are many more examples of authoritative figures and organisations in the Muslim world denouncing these sorts of acts. The problem is no matter how many times Muslim organisations and scholars denounce terrorism, Western acts of aggression in the Muslim world will always be an effective recruitment and propaganda tool for these Radical Muslim groups. Unfortunately, they can do nothing to stop/change UK and US foreign policy.

urtwistingmymelonman · 25/05/2013 07:48

solid gold.
you sum up my thoughts exactly.
religion has no place in todays society.
the amount of mass murder and genocide that has been carried out in the name of religion in the past couple of thousand years is sickening.
it beggers belief that seemingly intelligent people can believe such utter prehistoric claptrap.
the one and only time I read the bible I spent the whole time laughing at the absurdity of it.
ive got a book for everyone to read.
its called the god delusion.

theodorakisses · 25/05/2013 08:13

I have lived in Islamic countries for more years than I careto remember and have lots of non British friends on my FB. There have only been two deletions, one from an Iraqi friend after his mother and sister had an extremely serious experience which ended up with a court marshaling and one from a Palestinian friend for obvious reasons. In contrast, I have had to delete most of my UK friends due to the links to the EDL and worse. I just heard the question. On the Today show, "is the UKas tolerant as we think" and I think this is a valid question. Until the gutter scum that is our press continue to peddle fascist crap to the ignorant public, we will continue to think that because we don't read it or believe it that it is only a minority. Just compare the Guardian readership numbers to the Mail, Express and Sun readership and there is your answer. I honestly believe that the hacks at the Mail would have viewed this incident as nothing more than an opportunity to peddle more hysterical racism and increase their readers. I doubt they care for the actual circumstances.

urtwistingmymelonman · 25/05/2013 08:20

peaceful.
do not let 'your hatred of a people'cause you to be unkind to them.
'hatred of a people'
really?
why should anyone hate a people?

seeker · 25/05/2013 08:34

Why did you pick on that particular phrase? Did you not read all the other translations/interpretations?

And why "hatred of a people"? Why indeed? Ask the BNP or the EDL.

peacefuloptimist · 25/05/2013 08:36

Untwisting, you are reading something in to it that is not there. Hate is as natural a human emotion as love. I love my son, I hate spiders. Human beings get in to conflict with other human beings. These conflicts cause us sometimes to hate one another. The verse is saying even if you have grievances with a certain group of people do not treat them unjustly. Whether that is another country you are at war with or a former partner or friend who has wronged you in some way.

urtwistingmymelonman · 25/05/2013 08:39

im not a member of either the bnp or edl and don't agree with any of their 'policies'.
I don't understand how any religion,organisation or group cant hate anyone just for having different beliefs as them.
so I pose my question again.
why should ANYONE hate a whole people?

seeker · 25/05/2013 08:42

"why should ANYONE hate a whole people?"

I don't know. But people do. So a good idea for your Holy Book to tell not to act on that hated, yes?