To be shocked and frustrated with the Islamophobia that's bursting out all over Facebook today?

[Seekingsense]

Following the awful tragedy in Woolwich today.

I have seen everything from "We want our England back" to "Kick out all the foreigners" to "Islamic infiltration of the UK" etc. I have paraphrased as some of the stuff is so horrible I do not want to repeat it.

This is from normal everyday people and lots of them. Is this really what people think?

I, like most people am horrified by what has happened to this young soldier in Woolwich, but why is everyone so quick to blame an entire religion for it and to jump on the 'kick out all immigrants' bandwagon.

What can we do about it? Ignore, delete, post, report?

The vast majority of Christians are good, decent people. However there's a minority who aren't - the Westboro Baptists for example. The sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic church is another example of a minority of Christians behaving in a despicable way.

Should we therefore condemn all Christians based on the actions of a view and demand that ordinary Christians should account for themselves? No.

Actions of a few, I should say.

Gobby,

"I'll accept the actions of these two men are the default mode of thinking of all Muslims"

I think you would have a hard time finding anyone who believes that.

What is of concern though, is the view, expressed several times in this thread, that de facto, if an Islamic extremeist commits an evil act, he ceases to be a Muslim, and it is not, therefore, a problem of Islam.

This seems to me to be wholly slippery. Might just be me, though.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm

"What is of concern though, is the view, expressed several times in this thread, that de facto, if an Islamic extremeist commits an evil act, he ceases to be a Muslim, and it is not, therefore, a problem of Islam."

Yes quite. It seems like an example of the "no true scotsman" fallacy:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

One of the attackers did say that there are many verses in the Koran that enjoin followers of Mohammad to go out and kill non-believers.

For example from Sura 9:

9:5 When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm

I think you raise a good point there. I don't believe all muslims are extremist loons out to kill us all but yes there does seem to be a dis-ownership of those who do. Maybe it would be more accurate to say, like in all religions, there is a section of them with extreme views rather then deny they exist in the religion altogether?

In all religions, there are those few who have extreme views which are not a normal part of their particular religion and are a danger to others in their beliefs.

Maybe the media should point out the differences between an extremist and a normal religious person, as i can see as to why some people confuse the two.

ChocCake, you sound like a genuine person but I think you're wasting you're time here on this thread trying to get any kind of genuine debate or response. You will just be sneered at or worse by people simultaneously proclaiming the moral and political "high ground" (irony!).

Honestly, its a waste of energy, though its nice to see people try sometimes. Its probably better to do something more rewarding with your time.

Hoppin

"thingsthatgo why wouldnt anybody reply? [Confused]"

Because, I think, that those in what could very broadly be called the "moderate Muslim" corner find it difficult to discuss the small, but growing and increasingly vocal, sector of Islam which avows complete contempt for this country,its values,its people and its laws. The public face of this sector burns poppies and Union flags. The private face is plotting mass murder.

If no-one here thinks these violent criminals are representative of "normal" Muslims, then why are we even having this discussion?

Well I have to say that the men who did this, and their associates, must be well pleased.
The extreme reactions and controversy resulting from their atrocity must be exceeding their wildest dreams of success.

Can someoe tell me what is wrong with 'we want our England back', I interpret this as a sign of allegiance to where you LIVE and nothing else. What is wrong with that?

ARealDame - i am noticing alot of genuine questions go unanswered. It gets drummed in how Christians must accept muslims (and other religions,) educate themsleves and not hold prejudist views but no one seems to drum those same lines towards any other religion. We must tolorate but not be tolorated.

my phone keeps doing typos

If I'm not much mistaken,Ithink people are discussing it here in quite some detail.

Challenging someone's viewpoint isn't the danger as silencing them. If there was a genuine attempt at silencing people who perceive themselves to have unpopular viewpoints then, MN would have deleted this thread ages ago.

Of course my strong belief in whatever I think is right/better does mean to me that the other one is wrong/worse! ! It's the same other way round!

whether it be an opinion or taste or religious belief or indeed any possible subject where making a choice or a decision should be up to the individual, different opinions are inevitable and natural.

so what if I think I'm right and you think you're right?
that in itself is not a problem, as long as everyone involved accepts that these differences exist, and that neither sides will want to change and they are able to agree to disagree and get on with life. we are all different after all.

The problems only start when one person/side forces their opinion or any general or particular beliefs on the other and gives them an ultimatum to either accept/convert/change or else there will be some form of punishment. that's not acceptable.

none of this is new information or a unique point of view, neither am I the first person to realize this.

to move away from all highly controversial subjects for a moment I just want to give one example (and do not read anything else into this please):
I love meat. I will never agree with a vegetarian on this subject.
They could be my best friend or a total stranger, I don't try to convince them and I may or may not to listen to the reasons for their choices or they to mine, but nothing will change.
I'm happy with my choice and theirs doesn't bother me. (In fact I even benefit, more meat for me! )
so we can agree to disagree, job done.
and that's all what I mean.

Where do you want England back from Feelingood? Where's it been taken to?

It's still where it's always been, afaik.

The reason I am against that statement is that they clearly mean they believe England is no longer English and has been taken over by other ethnicities and religions, which is incorrect.

Islam has not taken over England, there is no-one to take it back from.

Chocolatecake

I think you are right, i think evidence of this is (correct me, as Im sure you will) is recently a town was stopped from flying a St Georges day flag as it was offensive to muslims (sorry can't remember where) and changing 'Chritmas lights' to Winter festival light.

I am not aware that any other religions change reference to their religious festivals/periods etc so as not to offend? I mean if everyone did that we would effectively netralise any distinctions in society.

Integration does not mean homogenisation.

D0oin I do not believe it has been taken anywhere, I did not say it is no longer English or taken over by Islam.

I just quit simply wondered what was wrong with reference to where we live society/country. I suppose it depends what statement that is is team up with and sentiment behind it. That could have been said by anyone from any set or of society btw.

Those are urban myths Feelingood. No-one has ever been stopped from celebrating their heritage or religion in any town or city in the UK.

A few years ago our towns "Santa's Grotto" was turned into a Mosque, according to a lot of FB, so as not to offend Muslims, except it wasn't, it was Cinderella's castle, any eejit with a half a brain cell could see that, it even had a glass slipper and mice outside of it. Didn't stop everyone ranting about their traditions being "stolen by Muslims" though

flippinada

So true. One of the wonders of Mumsnet is that debate, which I agree is certainly being had, is actually of a pretty high standard, given the difficulty of determining someones tone on the internet.

amazingmumof6 - having different views on eating meat is not the same as a religion or culture (or both) which means living in a "bubble" of that religion/culture which also requires not "mixing" without outside faiths or beliefs.

For instance we have a strong jewish community within the town. They are a very closed community who do not mix with any other part of society. They go about there lives amounst themselves and they don't cause trouble either. I find them quite fasinating and mysterious.

The wider society doesn't force themselves upon these jewish people nor do the jewish people force themselves upon society. They don't want to accept or mix amounst non jewish people and vice versa. The idea that we must all mix together and be friends in an accepting environment is nonsense. They have their closed community where they won't accept outside influences and beliefs or educate themsleves into accepting non jewish people in and we all go about our daily lives without trying to get them to accept us. As long as no one hurts anyone live and let live.

Feelingood - that does sound like a load of DM twoddle to be honest

The things that worry me more is the lack of English speaking in some schools which stiffles learning for English speaking students. I think that is more of a geniune concern than a DM story of "christmas" being "winter festifal."

"Islam has not taken over England, there is no-one to take it back from."

Well, it certainly seems to me that the sharia law supporters certainly want England to become an islamic country. I see more and more western looking women covering their heads in my local area. Personally, I don't understand what the attraction is to this religion.

Flag banned by Radstock town council.

Some councils have been reported in the past as 'cancelling christmas'

Yes some Muslims want England to accept sharia law. Some Christians want to ban gay marriage, some Catholics want to outlaw abortion, it doesn't mean the majority do, or that any of that is going to happen.

Some English people want to ban idiocy, but that's not going to happen either