To be shocked and frustrated with the Islamophobia that's bursting out all over Facebook today?

[Seekingsense]

Following the awful tragedy in Woolwich today.

I have seen everything from "We want our England back" to "Kick out all the foreigners" to "Islamic infiltration of the UK" etc. I have paraphrased as some of the stuff is so horrible I do not want to repeat it.

This is from normal everyday people and lots of them. Is this really what people think?

I, like most people am horrified by what has happened to this young soldier in Woolwich, but why is everyone so quick to blame an entire religion for it and to jump on the 'kick out all immigrants' bandwagon.

What can we do about it? Ignore, delete, post, report?

how can a council cancel Christmas ?????? twaddle

A lot of Muslims use Sharia Law to deal with civil disputes already - society hasn't collapsed and dinosaurs haven't reclaimed the earth

Chocolatecake - now that is a real concern, I would want to move I would want my children to be educated in their native tounge.

I dot understand anyone who moves into another society then complains about it and can't live within the broad rules of that society.

I have no problem however of factions of society who live distinctly separate in a peaceful and respectful way. whether they are hippys in a commune or closely knitted streets in a suburb.

Sorry Feelingood, i am not having a go at you, but statements about flags and Christmas really go against the genuine debate about this Country imo.

For instance a little while back on the morning debate show on Sunday mornings this woman really going for it about mass immigration and when asked why she could have said anything from oversubcribed schools to the English language not being used in some schools so stiffles learning to over stretched services etc. All genuine concerns open for debate but what she choose to say - "we weren't allowed to put up Christmas lights or have a carol service"

It instantly made her look stupid and de-flated a genuine debate about mass immigration because she sounded petty and her concern was unfounded.

Messing with a legal system is another matter entirely.

I don't know enough about Islam or their law. But in PR terms it is taking a battering.

When I stand at the school gates (well when I used to) no one talks about there religion we used (and all different: muslim, Hindu, catholic and another (?) to chat about they kids and clothiers and crap....even though occasionally someone would mention there were going to temple or whatever as it was such and such.... I despair.

Incidentally, I dont stand in my little mixed group anymore but nothing to do with this discussion just downright bitchiness.

choc if you don't get it just forget it.
I actually agree with some of the things you've said in some of your previous posts, but you've just disagreed with me and then argued my exact point in the SAME post so I'm a bit

btw I gave an example not a base for comparison, as clearly stated.
as you were

gordy exactly, what would Santa say?

I know you agreed with me but i wanted to make it clear my concerns are not associated with flags or christmas trees because they are always inflated "strories" dragged up from the daily mail and ignorance.

Yes choco I can see in that context those comments are petty. But the fact is this is what people experience and they rightly or wrongly associate it with a particular issue. they see it as having come to represent changes that they don't agree with. I think that is PC gone mad. Immigration is an entirely different issue.

You can't make anyone tollerate you, all you can do is set a standard of tollerence which you would hope other people would extend to you.

To be fair, I think the majority of the flags/Christmas/everyotherbitofbloodynonsense stories usually have a grain of truth to them. A bit of digging usually reveals a councillor or middle manager who has endured one too many diversity awareness courses , makes a well intentioned ruling and ends up annoying everyone - including the puzzled, hapless " minorities" they were looking to.

Followed by a swift u-turn when it makes it onto the local news.

One of the attackers did say that there are many verses in the Koran that enjoin followers of Mohammad to go out and kill non-believers.

Somebloke he did not say that these verses were the reason why he was doing it though did he. The reason he stated for why he was committing his horrific crime was because of UK foreign policy in particular troops in Afghanistan. As for 'many verses', why don't you read the Quran yourself to see exactly what it contains rather than relying on the rantings of extremist loons in both the EDL and the Muslim Radical groups.

There are many texts and scriptures that can be misinterpreted and misquoted to prove a vile point. For example....

^"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy themthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesas the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God."

Holy Bible: Deuteronomy 20:10-18^

If I only read those particular verses of the bible what sort of impression do you think I would have of Christianity. Certainly not a pleasant one. Yet you are perfectly happy to do the same thing to Muslim Scriptures.

I would say the problem is not the text its the reader. I read that verse you quoted from the Quran and I immediately put it in to the context in which it was revealed which was in response to a long, bitter conflict between the Muslims living at that time and the non-Muslim community there who persecuted them. I don't apply these verses to my neighbours, my work colleagues and friends etc. That is the stance of the majority of Muslims in the world. If it wasn't there would be a lot more bloodshed then we see today. However for a small, dangerous, fringe minority of people they interpret that verse to apply not only to non-muslims who they consider themselves in conflict with today but also to muslims who disagree with them. After all the majority of victims of these Radical Muslim groups are in fact other Muslims. Find me one verse in the Quran that legitimises and incites Muslims to kill other Muslims. It doesn't exist. These people are not motivated by the Quran. They have a political agenda and they twist religious texts to legitimise the wrong things that they do whether it is killing innocent non-Muslims or slaughtering Muslims who oppose their views. In the same way that the far-right in America twist the constitution to oppose any government trying to control the spread of guns. Or the way the fundamentalist Christian right in America use the bible to justify supporting wars in the Middle East to speed up the arrival of 'the Rapture'.

'But the fact is this is what people experience and they rightly or wrongly associate it with a particular issue.'

But FeelingGood a lot of these issues are not experienced by anyone and instead people see it in the media. I have never met a Muslim who had a problem with Christmas lights or seeing the St George Cross in public and I have mixed with a lot of Muslims. A lot of these stories are completely made up by the media. See below.

www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/mar/04/daily-star-reporter-quits-protest

I'm not discounting that there may be some people out there who have this type of approach. Muslims are not monolithic and you will always find a wide range of views about most topics. But for those few people who complain about Christmas trees or lights I wonder how many more thousands of Muslims buy Christmas trees, cards, presents and generally get stuck in to festivities. Yet people only focus on the first group and not the latter.

why dawndonna?

Those idiot murderers in Woolwich started it, by using their religion as an excuse for their madness :(. Was bound to have a backlash, which is what they wanted I expect. That's the kind of idiots they are, more interested in creating strife than in their actual religion.

My FB isn't full of racist nonsense, maybe some folk need to change their FB friends.

Oh I don't know, something to do with the breathtaking displays of ignorance and racism on this thread, in the guise of 'discussion'.

peacefuloptimist

There are indeed gruesome parts of the Old Testament. However there is this thing called the New Testament that came after it and is full of peace and love type stuff. The religion basically follows the teaching of Christ, which is non-violent.

No Christian these days would take the passages about laying waste to cities as an instruction manual. And very few Christians either would regard the Bible as the direct infallible word of God.

By contrast, the orthodox muslim view is that the Koran is the word of Allah as dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to his messenger Mohammed. There is no equivalent of the New Testament. As such there is limited scope for interpretation or putting things in context. If Mohammed says to slay infidels than that's what the man says.

Mohammed was a 7th century military leader and presumably was involved in all the things that 7th century soldiers did. He is recorded as having beheaded a large number of infidels personally. He spread his creed through conquest violence and encouraged his followers to carry on the work after his death which they did with great effect, spreading through much of North Africa and Spain and almost taking Vienna is the siege of 11-12 Sept 1683.

There is a great deal in the Koran which encourages war and violence. The work "islam" means "submission".

The 2 killers the other day screamed "Allahu Akhbar" as they attempted to hack the head of their victim and one of them subsequently tried to justify it by referring to the Koran.

But oh noooooooo it was nothing to do with islam, they were just uhnhappy with British foreign policy.

There is a concern about the growth of of a stricter, more radical practice of Islam though. People are worried and uneasy, non Muslim and Muslim alike. I can understand people's concerns. I have friends from more moderate Muslim countries who can feel and see a change and they are worried.

Some have asked why some Muslims in this country seem to hate the UK and our western way of life. Don't see why people can't see how conflicted many Muslims must feel. They have links with other Muslim countries, UK foreign policy has meddles in many Muslim countries. Mass casualties and infrastructure destroyed. How can you nt feel conflicted. Add to that that you are the new whipping boy in your own country to further alienate you. Why are people surprised that many (especially young male) Muslims are conflicted and passionate about this. The UK had got off very lightly compared to the countries we have been involved in.

chocolate i know of two hacidic jewish areas in london, golders green and stamford hill (north london). fwiw i wouldn't be accepted either and i am 100% jewish but i do not practise, i don't wear a sheitel (wig) etc. all the jews i knew also used to watch them with wonder, so lord knows what any non jew thinks so your post is interesting :-D but no, they ain't good at mixing, they speak a mixture of yiddish & german. i wouldn't be happy living in their community, i would feel very excluded

What i don't understand is how Moslems are critical of the West killing their people with their foreign policy but what about the way say the Taliban treat their own people and people who are from another ethnic group within Afghanistan. Should the British have never gone there and left them to all kill each other? Perhaps that would have been better but then no doubt these Nutters would find something else to bleat about.

I agree with what you say Some bloke. There has never been a renaissance in Islam in the same way as christianity or obviously a New Testament. To me some of the more extreme Islamists behave in a way that was the norm here before the 16 century.

Has anyone read The Kite Runner or a Splendid Thousand Suns (I think) which is shocking. I know it is ficticious but the way the women are treated by Maryams DH is terrible.

somebloke
Muslims put things in context all the time. There are Muslims in this country who pay interest on mortgages because it has been accepted that there isn't always an appropriate alternative.

My DH married me, a Christian woman and no I didn't have to convert nor will I.

One of my SIL wears a niqab another one doesn't wear a hijab at all.

These evil men might have thought they were acting in the name of Islam but they weren't. What they did was not permitted, they try to claim there is a war but clearly there isn't. They were not under threat and acting in self defence, there really is no justification whatever they try to say. My muslim DH classifies what they did as cold blooded murder.

alemci
The situation in Afghanistan is very complicated. My limited understanding is that one of the issues is that the West armed and funded the Taliban when the Taliban were fighting against the Soviet interests in Afghanistan and then when the balance of power shifted turned against the Taliban.

So we were happy to fund the Taliban to kill and oppress Afghanis when it suited us. I suspect that there are quite a few people in Afghanistan who don't we the west as the bold saviours coming in to rescue them but rather as the people who helped create the problem in the first place.

don't view not don't we

I'm a white English atheist. I hold all religions in equal contempt as being about power, control, misogyny and irrelevant fairy tales but I support people's right to believe in them and get on with their lives in a mixed, multicultural community. FFS blaming all Muslims for the actions of a couple of deranged arseholes is like blaming all white people for the EDL, or saying they represent 'us'.