To be shocked and frustrated with the Islamophobia that's bursting out all over Facebook today?

[Seekingsense]

Following the awful tragedy in Woolwich today.

I have seen everything from "We want our England back" to "Kick out all the foreigners" to "Islamic infiltration of the UK" etc. I have paraphrased as some of the stuff is so horrible I do not want to repeat it.

This is from normal everyday people and lots of them. Is this really what people think?

I, like most people am horrified by what has happened to this young soldier in Woolwich, but why is everyone so quick to blame an entire religion for it and to jump on the 'kick out all immigrants' bandwagon.

What can we do about it? Ignore, delete, post, report?

[peacefuloptimist]

Thank you seeker.

[urtwistingmymelonman]

I don't like spiders because they scare the shit out of me.
I don't hate them.
I hate the Yorkshire ripper.
I hate fred and rose west.
I hate those two guys that killed lee.
I hate the people who were involved in blowing up the twin towers.
I don't hate a people.
I just struggle to understand how anybody can hate a whole people?

[seeker]

"I just struggle to understand how anybody can hate a whole people?"

So do I. But people do.

[urtwistingmymelonman]

ok thanks seeker.
that's all I was asking.

[peacefuloptimist]

Untwisting, people here can be singular or plural. It can be a whole nation for example during the second world war I'm sure many British people hated Germans. Or it can be one person for example your ex or business rival.

[urtwistingmymelonman]

I was looking for clarification and you have given it to me.
it is only natural for people to ask questions.
I wasn't judging,just asking;)

[Moominsarehippos]

You'd think after so many thousands of years of 'civilisation' we'd learn. I've often wondered what aliens watching from afar would make of humans.

[seeker]

interesting article in the Guardian today

[CoteDAzur]

I'm a bit late to the thread, but just from the last few pages:

Yes, there are people who hate an entire people.

somebloke - "Idolaters" in that sura you quote refer to pagans, not Christians or other "people of the book". Quran is clear about Christians and Jews all worshipping the same God with Muslims. If you plan to talk on this subject quoting the Quran, you really should read it rather than cherry-picking Googled phrases.

alemci - UK didn't invade Afghanistan for humanitarian reasons, and Khaled Hosseini is laughably ignorant about not only Islam but also Afghanistan, having left that country as a child to live in the US. And yes, it is "Muslim" and has been for a long time.

Yes, Taliban used to be funded by the West, because they were fighting Soviet Russia.

Yes, there is a "Muslim community". Look up the word umma.

[alemci]

re: Cote Dazur possibly not but some of the Afghan people must appreciate the soldiers being there. Would it be better if we hadn't gone in? Perhaps it would be for the treasury and taxpayers. Yes we shouldn't have ever been involved point blank and not given arms to fight the Russians. Of course it is always about money etc going into people's pockets I should think.

Perhaps Hosseini is ignorant but he tells a good story and I am sure there are grains of truth. I am sure there was another auto biographical book that I read about a lady living in Afghanistan who was married and had the whole of her DH family living with her. It sounded like a real nightmare.

What I find difficult is that people come to GB to free oppression but then somehow it feels like some of them want to re create it here in our supposedly free and tolerant society and I know it is only a few bad apples but still.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

alemci
It might have been better or it might have worse. It is a huge thing to invade another's country and change their government outside of a war situation and it can do more harm than good. Especially as we had previous armed and funded some the people we now say are a problem. It's also worth remembering its not our first invasion of Afghanistan, we've treated it as a political football for more than a century and we are not the only ones.

"During the nineteenth century, Afghanistan was invaded twice from British India, during the First Anglo-Afghan War of 1838?1842 and again in the Second Anglo-Afghan War of 1878?1880, both times with the intention of limiting Russian influence in the country and quelling local tribal leaders. "
Sorry it's only a Wikipaedia entry but these invasions sound very familiar.

[CoteDAzur]

Ooh, living with her in-laws - how terrible! Invade the country, I say

US & UK made a strategic decision and invaded Afghanistan, then installed a friendly government and now more blood is being shed to keep that government in place.

Just don't pretend that it was all for humanitarian reasons.

[Sallyingforth]

I've often wondered what aliens watching from afar would make of humans
Well moomin I hope they don't think they could send their troops in to 'civilise' us. That doesn't seem to work very well.

[theodorakisses]

CoteDAzur, well and bravely said.

[CoteDAzur]

somebloke - There are Christians who take the Bible literally (= "fundamentalists"), and they sound no less nutty than Muslim fundamentalists when they go on about how Earth is just a few thousand years old etc.

"the orthodox muslim view is that the Koran is the word of Allah"

Yes, but most Muslims are aware that those were God's words to people living in a desert over 1400 years ago. The vast majority of Muslims don't seek to kill infidels any more than Christians seek to burn witches.

"(Mohammad) spread his creed through conquest violence and encouraged his followers to carry on the work after his death which they did with great effect, spreading through much of North Africa and Spain and almost taking Vienna is the siege of 11-12 Sept 1683"

You are now talking about the Ottoman Empire whose expansion was political and economic, like with all Empires before it. Its Padishahs were born to infidel mothers and conquered peoples were allowed to keep their religion, which is how Eastern Europe remained Christian.

"The 2 killers the other day screamed "Allahu Akhbar" "

Yes, so? They are Muslim. Nobody is saying they aren't.

The point people are making and that you are spectacularly missing is that Islam doesn't tell its followers to brutally random strangers on the street.

If it were, there would be many more such attacks happening, and they are not. Have you checked the number of Muslims in the UK? Why do you think they are not all attacking people with big knives, if that is what their religion says they should do?

Oh wait. I get it now. You know Islam better than they do

[lottieandmia]

ThreeDudes - you are the one talking tosh. The xenophobic rubbish you apparently think of as common sense has been spouted by bigots misguided people for years - it came out of my own parents mouths 25 years ago before polish immigration.

You have no evidence, whatsoever to back up what you say so might I suggest you are the one twisting the truth to suit your political agenda, in actual fact. As your appear to think your prejudiced perception is fact.

[alemci]

cote D'azur it was not very nice for this women. I can 't remember what the title was and I have heard many times over of the mother in law treating their daughter in law badly in some cultures and her having no rights etc. Personally I wouldn't like to live with my in laws even though they are nice people.

I wish we hadn't gone into Afghanistan ever or Iran etc.

[theodorakisses]

Cotedazure has made an extremely important point: Thinking you are multicultural and reading the Guardian doesn't make you an expert on Islam, neither does Googling it. Culture is an innate, learned and unconscious combination of values and beliefs and children, especially boys, are introduced to Islam as soon as they are able to communicate. By the time the boys at our school start at 3, they will have been doing Koran studies and attending the Mosque for several years and this is in a very moderate state. The most devout and literal people I work with are all British born second or more generation men of Pakistani origin. I am basing this, of course on my department who are about 300 Arabic, 55 UK and some South Africans as well. The point I am making is that even the cleverest academic cannot truly understand such an unspoken and ancient set of values.

[theodorakisses]

I suppose you could liken it to an extent to Catholicism although in the interests of absolute honesty my only experience of this has been reading Maeve Binchy

[WineNot]

Thinking you are multicultural and reading the Guardian doesn't make you an expert on Islam, neither does Googling it

This.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Actually, my DS goes to school with a hugely diverse bunch of kids, a lot of whom don't speak much English when they start. The school is utterly brilliant and all the kids make a lot of progress in their time there. I really like the fact that he's mixing with children from a variety of cultures and hope this will help him grow up with an open mind.

[Binkybix]

Re the understanding of English in schools, rather than just asserting that your opinion is correct because it fits in with wider belief system (on both sides of the fence), doesn't it make sense to try and take an evidence based approach?

I know nothing about this, but surely the best way think about it is to look at a) do these schools exist and b) is there any evidence available, what is it and what does it tell us.

There are two theories being out forward here as truth: it has a negative impact on learning or it doesn't. Has either side got any evidence? It's an interesting topic.

[Binkybix]

X post with SGB!

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm]

"Yes, Taliban used to be funded by the West, because they were fighting Soviet Russia."

Sigh. No. Mujahideen funded by the West. Different to Taliban, although some mujahideen may have become Taliban, later.

[infamouspoo]

I had to laugh at blaming immigrants for GP's surgeries running late. I went with my elderly aunt to her GP's appointment. She lives in a leafy southampton suburb with not an immigrant in sight. We waited 90 minutes and thats pretty normal. You know what it was. Elderly people. Not immigrants.
Quick, call the BNP!