To tell my friend I cant see her because of her 3 yo dd?

[bubbagee]

8 months ago, we moved to a new area and I got friendly with a lovely group of women who all have dc's the same age as my ds (3). I became especially good friends with one of the mums as we have very similar interests.

The problem is how her 3 yo dd acts/behaves when she is at my house. She gets hysterical if she asks me, her mum or my ds to do something/say something and we either don't hear her/don't understand what she wants us to do. For example, she wanted ds to play pat a cake and he just couldn't really get the hang of it and she went into this absolute rage of tears, really deafening screaming and almost vomited because she was so worked up. She is a big girl, twice the size of my ds (they are 2 weeks apart in age) and really gets in your face. She gets really angry if me and her mum are talking about something which doesn't include her and will scream this awful high pitched sound until we stop talking and focus all attention on her.

This happens EVERY TIME they come over and if we go their house, even if we meet out.

The problem is, my ds just cant handle it. They came over yesterday and ds went and hid under the bed. When I went up to see what was wrong he was sobbing saying her screaming hurts his ears. They had only just walked in the door and already he was anticipating the drama. When she is having these episodes, my friend cuddles her and tries to placate her by singing but it just doesn't work. When they are at my house, her dd refuses to go home and yesterday they were here for 7 hours because every time she tried to get her shoes on she would just have an absolute meltdown. My friend believes in gentle discipline as do I, but I cant expose my ds to this any longer. yesterday was the final straw. I felt like id been battered mentally. He asks me every morning if they are coming over and has a really nervous look on his face. AIBU to talk to my friend about this and say I cant see her because of this? I would suggest we meet up just the two of us, but I know she wouldn't do this because she doesn't like leaving her dd.

RL calls.cheerio

So don't then. It's not for you to tell ME how to feel about it though. I've been there. I know what it's like to feel your home is under invasion from a tiny terror who has free reign to make everyone suffer.
No autism at play - just poor discipline and a lack of awareness of how it impacts on everyone else.

The child could be autistic but we don't know all that we know is that op young boy is quite rightly scared by her behaviour. My dd used to meltdown in unfamiliar/familiar settings and yes we did have to cut friends vists short. Iam lucky I had some fantastic friends they ended up coming tomours where dd was more calm or meeting in the park or neutral setting. I used to sing to calm her down shouting would have antagonised her. When dd started school I started to meet my friends in their wn houses without her. Trucks has worded it perfectly. If that does not work wait until tey go to pre school tan meet up

It was me that used 'ineffectual' wrt the mum. I was talking about my own remarkably similar situation; the child wasn't autisric, and the mother was ineffectual

Seriously, after the experiences we had, the effect it had on me and the effect it had on my dd; I will never over accomidate again, autism or no

I think there is a world of difference between a parent making the effort with their child's difficult behaviour regardless of any SN and one who doesn't.

Had the OP been posting that mum has been doing everything she can to manage the behaviour or had talked about possible reasons for it then I may have responded differently.

My DN has ADHD frankly the disgusting comments about my Dsis being a 'bad mum' are etched in my brain - however it was patently obvious to her close friends and family that she had a thought about the behaviour, considered he parenting, SN and had a plan in action.

If we had all sat about and ignored his behaviour or said it our children's inability to cope with his behaviour, or let him run riot then he wouldn't have gotten the help he needed to become the lovely young man he is now.

Excusing and minimising and suffering bad behaviour or telling each other it's our fault for not being understanding enough - creating imaginary scenarios about why that person can or can't do something is a ridiculously fertile ground for toxic relationships.

The child may or may not be able to 'help' their behaviour but their behaviour is a problem and needs to be addressed - talking to the mum is a lovely thing to do and may be the first call, if she is unwilling to do anything to help h child learn to socialise then she is not being a good friend.

I personally would have a discreet word with the mum ext time her dd has a meltdown or she brings up her behaviour to you. I have done te same with a close friend regarding her ds who she was having big problems with. She did not seek help and in tim her ds behaviour is much better. She took it really well but just wanted to wait and see

All these suggestions about talking to the mum are great and sensible.

It's comments like 'the child has just learnt how to get her own way" and calling her a brat and her mum namby pamby that I object to.

Just so we are clear.

Op, I've been in the situation you're in now. I put a stop to them visiting our home after she physically attacked ds.
I wasn't about to lose my friendship over it though (the mother is my closest friend of almost 40 years).

There wasn't really any need for a big chat or anything. We're both busy with work/nursery and now school so there just isn't much opportunity to meet up and when we do it's usually the park or softplay. Her dd is 5 now and is much better, she still screams a lot and tantrums when leaving (on the rare occasions she does visit), she gets slung over her shoulder.

The school and doctors do not think she had sn as she is perfectly capable of behaving well for others, she only ever behaves like this around her mother.

Anyway, I don't think you should have her round whilst it's clearly upsetting your ds but there's no need to lose your friend either.

I meant to add, there are lots of reasons behind bad behaviour, aside from Sn. In my friends childs case I know a lot of her behaviour is down to a hectic homelife and a terrible diet, something I think gets overlooked. My friend's dd for example tantrums for sweets/chocolate and 9/10 my friend gives in. I've seen her have upto 5 adult size chocolate bars/bags of sweets in one afternoon and she is up until 11pm most nights.
I have pointed out the connection to my friend.

I had a talk with my friend about her dcs behaviour. It did not go well. I know a number of other people talked to her as well. It didn't make a bit of difference. It isn't always well received

I would only do this if you know the friend well or she starts to bring up her dd behaviour to you. Otherwise I would meet in school time and in natural locations

My point I suppose is..she'may well not have SN.

But it would be so lovely if people thought 'well, if she did have autism causing her behaviour it would be a bit crap to call her a brat and her mum ineffectual for not dealing with it, maybe I should hold back slightly in the judging'.

It is hard to find a solution to such issues..I do however feel for the mother if all her friends drop her without at least trying to work something out.

It is what happens though, even wth good friends.

At various points over the years, I've been both the horrified host parent who wants to fling something at what on the face of it looks like a rude and out of control visiting child. And also the exhausted, emotionally drained, and acutely embarrassed mother of high functioning ASD child who can suddenly switch from sweet to nightmare because some very subtle trigger has been pressed. There have been occasions when I would have been tempted to just quietly move in to the corner of a friend's living room (so, how much to sub let this sofa then?! ) rather than face the meltdown I knew was waiting to get my child into the car.

I reckon it usually does take a little bit of experience of your own child being difficult to be able to empathise properly with other parents. And maybe a bit of skin toughening to both call a halt to a playdate that is not going well (as host) and also as guest to be able to throw child in meltdown over your shoulder, call your goodbyes and get out while you are still on speaking terms!!!

But, you really do need to learn to know when to call a halt to playdates, whether as exasperated (but sympathetic) host, or embarrassed and drained guest. It is of course possible to end on a friendly note, without waiting 7 hours for a window, no matter what the behaviour of what is after all a very young child.

If you value the friendship of this woman, then I think you'll find a way of dealing with the situation. But you seem to be saying that you don't really value it enough?

I have two autistic children and in my experience they need rules and very firm boundries. My DD is a screamer and although she finds it hard to control she also knows I will not tolerate it and if she doesn't stop we leave. Since I stuck to this the screaming episodes have become fewer and she is learning to find other ways to express herself.

If there are no rules or expectations of your child Sn or not how are they ever going to learn.

They are all different

fanjo...I think sacreblues point about toxic relationships is the crux of it for me.

My dd is a bit older now. She has a few friwnds who have SENs, in fact she is on the register herself! She doesn't have any friends who regularly frighten or abuse her.

It is not ok to force a friendship on a young child where they are exposed to bullying behaviour, whilst the other parent sits back and watches it happen.

I see what you are saying, bur empathy cannot over ride protecting your own child. Like has been said, other child will likely grow out of aggressive stage, but the other child could be left with a much more fundamental affect

Didn't say she should.

I just think people could attempt to not judge the child and her mother.

It's totally fine to protect your own child, clearly.

I am not saying the OP should put up and shut up.

Just that, if there is a good chance the child has SN, people shouldn't call her a brat and her mum useless, is all.

I can't do much but post in a hurry today as DD is wild (despite my best discipline attempts)

Sacreblue yy to everything you said there.

Fanjo is ticking me off here...but her experience is no more valid or worthy than mine. It's just different. She is working on the assumption that the child has SN, I am working on the assumption that she hasn't...because that is my experience.

I wouldn't have miserable seven hour visits with anyone...SN or not.

I am not working on that assumption.

My point is,.several of us..who know about these things, have said she may WELL have autism. It is POSSIBLE.

If she did it would be beyond unfair to call her a brat.

So,I personally would avoid doing so.
if you are happy to only accept your own point of view and not accept anyone else COULD be right, not iS right, but COULD be, then fair enough.

But if you Would be happy to call her that if she did turn out to have a neurological issue then err..good for you for being so self assured I suppose.

I wouldnt inflict.a 7 hour miserable visit on anyone.

But I wouldn't instantly call someone's child a brat if they exhibited extreme challenging behaviour either,

Clearly your opinion is the majority,judgingby cats bumfaces we get if DD is stressed in public.

So prob wastingmy breath but if one person became slightly more accepting that not all bad behaviour is brattishness or the parents fault my pointing it out is worth it.

I rarely judge a child in any situation. More than happy to judge a parent who stays for 7 hours ineffectual!

I think I see what you are saying, Fanjo that you would prefer people thought a child was SN rather than badly behaved in the first instance. I think the reason there is a clash here is because of parents not parenting regardless of the 'cause' of the inappropriate behaviour.

I doubt you think that a parent of a child with SN should just do nothing and be free from being thought of as 'lazy' any more than any other parent not dealing with challenging behaviour.

I called my friends child a brat (in my post not to her face) and I suppose it would have been fairer to call the mother that since it was her ineffectual parenting that resulted in the child acting like a brat and knowing they would get away with it

My DN had to learn how to interact with others and that some behaviour was unacceptable. I think this is fair enough for all kids SN or not (as far as possible)

Where behaviour is so uncontrollable or unmanageable as to inflict hurt or distress on others then it has to be stopped, or the child removed to their own home.

It is not ok to allow a child to hurt or cause significant distress to another (and that goes for grown ups too regardless of any 'issues') but I think this is a point you already agree on.

I am rather afraid that if I saw a parent allowing a child to behave badly I would 'cat's bum' but that is again a world away from seeing a parent trying to manage behaviour rather than throwing their hands up or worse smiling indulgently