To tell my friend I cant see her because of her 3 yo dd?

[bubbagee]

8 months ago, we moved to a new area and I got friendly with a lovely group of women who all have dc's the same age as my ds (3). I became especially good friends with one of the mums as we have very similar interests.

The problem is how her 3 yo dd acts/behaves when she is at my house. She gets hysterical if she asks me, her mum or my ds to do something/say something and we either don't hear her/don't understand what she wants us to do. For example, she wanted ds to play pat a cake and he just couldn't really get the hang of it and she went into this absolute rage of tears, really deafening screaming and almost vomited because she was so worked up. She is a big girl, twice the size of my ds (they are 2 weeks apart in age) and really gets in your face. She gets really angry if me and her mum are talking about something which doesn't include her and will scream this awful high pitched sound until we stop talking and focus all attention on her.

This happens EVERY TIME they come over and if we go their house, even if we meet out.

The problem is, my ds just cant handle it. They came over yesterday and ds went and hid under the bed. When I went up to see what was wrong he was sobbing saying her screaming hurts his ears. They had only just walked in the door and already he was anticipating the drama. When she is having these episodes, my friend cuddles her and tries to placate her by singing but it just doesn't work. When they are at my house, her dd refuses to go home and yesterday they were here for 7 hours because every time she tried to get her shoes on she would just have an absolute meltdown. My friend believes in gentle discipline as do I, but I cant expose my ds to this any longer. yesterday was the final straw. I felt like id been battered mentally. He asks me every morning if they are coming over and has a really nervous look on his face. AIBU to talk to my friend about this and say I cant see her because of this? I would suggest we meet up just the two of us, but I know she wouldn't do this because she doesn't like leaving her dd.

It is/has been considered, I think it also needs to be considered that it's not but of course it has, by other posters.

As pointed up thread it may not have been 7hrs of full on tantrum but 7hrs of time at the house in total. I have had unwanted guests attempt to eek out their stay after an organised lunch - in total the time would sound horrendous but it may have only been the last hour that was uncomfortable.

And my F child could easily create havoc for over an hour. My own DS I am sure could at 3 had he been allowed to.

So we are all really left with what I said in the previous post - it is primarily the mother's response or lack thereof to the tantrum I don't believe any of you would not take some action - if only (heart going out to you) to admit bewilderment at the behaviour if you really had tried everything. That would see a normal response of a parent struggling. Or saying "we think it might be.." That too would seem appropriate.

Not to refer to the behaviour, nor to take action to prevent/mitigate it, seems odd. And that is considering your points about being in a fog pre diagnosis (if there was something to diagnose)

Even at her wits end my Dsis would never have allowed her child to cause such distress on an ongoing basis to another child so perhaps her response to challenging behaviour has influenced my beliefs on it.

Scarebleu, As I said friend's dc with or without sn, the key word for me is 'friend'. If they are your friend, you talk about it with them, and try to help or show support, or you just be honest and end the friendship.

I also don't really see where the op is saying that her friend is not responding to her child, or is just not bothering. Singing to your child in a meltdown, might be the way she normally calms her down, I don't know, but she says they both believe on gentle discipline, so the other mum is obviously not just doing nothing.

I feel sorry for all parties here.

DS2 was like this. I know I'll get flamed but cranial osteopIathy gave me a life!! Changed him so much.

Anyway you probably can't suggest that or anything else. But you do need to talk to her. She must be a wreck poor cow.

What's her OH like?

hazeyjane singing didn't work. The mother needs some new strategies.

I think you can be honest and discuss it as I said up thread, it is not necessarily going to be appreciated in all cases.

And I would have thought a friend would explain what they were trying to do if their child was in tantrum and what they were doing didn't seem to be working.

That would have been a good opener if the friend needed support or had concerns about SN or was trying a new discipline method. I am not a harsh disciplinarian and agree with 'gentle discipline' but that is not the same as no discipline or ineffectual discipline.

Goodness haven't we all had one of the one days trying to do any number of things and maybe the DC is over tired or hungry and we say to whoever we are with 'sorry, it must ...' Or something?

The OP is clear that the cuddles and singing are not working - how does the mother not see this? Or realising that the OP can see this wouldn't she say why she is persisting with something that's not working (it's a new method and needs time to work or whatever)

Sometimes consistency in discipline does take time to bed in and I would have thought explaining that would be simple. That is very different to blindly repeating something that doesn't work and expecting everyone to just put up with it.

Well, obviously singing didn't work in this instance! But it might have worked previously.

With dd2 (nt) being very still and calm and holding her really tightly would work 9 times out of 10, but on the 1 (or 2!) times out of 10 it didn't work, you could guarantee we would be at a friend's or in the supermarket and I would end up with a screaming mess, and me completely wrecked - and this was when she was 4 and it was very hard if not impossible to wrestle her over my shoulder and get her out, especially if she had barricaded herself under the bed (on one memorable occasion)!

I am frustrated that there seems to be a tacit belief that any child behaving badly must have SN - that's simply not true

Of course it isn't true.

But there are often posts on here that describe a childs behavior in a way that jumps out at those 'in the know' so the possibility of SNs is suggested.

Then those not 'in the know' start banging on about 'some children are just naughty' etc etc.

Indeed I think it clearly has been stated that while the child's behaviour is what is affecting the OPs child it is the mothers response, or lack thereof to that behaviour which is derailing the friendship

Me and others have explained how difficult it can be when you are at a loss as to what is wrong. what it seems to mean is that she is not responding to the behaviors in a way that the OP [and others] feel is effectual. she may be trying something different or she may just not have a fucking clue what to do for the best.

None of the posts from parents talking about their SN children have seemed like parents who would do nothing in the face of a tantrum - whether to calm a child or reprimand them

Believe me, some times you just don't know what to do. I do now, but I can remember a time when everything I thought was right was in fact wrong for my child.

The point is, sometimes you just don't know what is right.

Parenting is a learning curve and even more so when you have a child with additional needs.

And I would have thought a friend would explain what they were trying to do if their child was in tantrum and what they were doing didn't seem to be working

Really?

Do you really think that that would be the prime concern at that point?

What is so flame worthy about saying a child who has a 7 hour meltdown MAY have autism?
I read the op as meaning due to the child tantruming every time it was suggested she put her shoes on, they stayed for 7 hours, rather than that the tantrum was continuous?

That could easily be construed as bratty behaviour and ineffectual parenting.

hazeyjane sounds like it wasn't just a one off?

I really feel for the poor mum of the tantrumgirl. I know what it's like. We got barred from a toddler group once I was glad when he turned a corner because it was so stressful.

You are not choosing that. You are choosing a life without effort or tolerance.

How the fuck do you know?

DS1 being model child didn't help. DS2 was the easiest baby in the universe then BAM!!!

I do not believe a short description over the Internet is enough to assert yea or ney 'in the know' or not.

The OP mentioned this is a regular occurrence so if it was a case of the strategy working 9/10 just not on this 7hr day I think it wouldn't have been said it happens 'every single time'

Having re read my post I see a gap re - when any child is having a tantrum most parents consider the whys and pass a remark to whoever they are with. Only the OP can answer if her friend has ever done so on any of the (apparently) numerous occasions.

Of course parenting is a learning curve - so what's wrong with saying 'I have no idea why my child is behaving like this/what to do?'

It is very important to me to ask for help when needed, to offer support, to question bad behaviour, respect diversity, help if possibly and not feel guilty if that help is not solicited (and I am not a mind reader), or if honest questions are rebuffed and offence taken, or if I am unable to safely help.

I think it's as easy as a single sentence, yes Amber, not necessarily a full blown account.

ok I'm not saying this particular child definitely has SN but

It is comments like some of these when my dd was 3 that meant her SN hasn't been picked up before now (she is now 5).

"Oh she is just behaving like a brat"
"Oh sne kids are just naughty"

No 3 year old is inherently naughty.

for the record I'm not trying to say she definitely has SN but would say it is a possibility given MY personal experience

However no child deserves to be disregarded as many have on this thread as purely being difficult for difficulties sake!

Sne =some

No one has asserted yea or ney though, they have suggested SNs as a possibility

Why that is so hard for people to consider is beyond me.

Ds has got sn, I have not a clue sometimes to how he is going to react to things. I am flailing around, sometimes I am with a friend who I can talk to about it, more often than not I am close to tears and just wanting the ground to swallow me up. In my case it is fear, I don't know what is going to be around the next corner with ds. It was different with dd2, once I knew that she was nt and that her tantrums, were anxiety induced explosions of fear and panic and worked out ways of dealing with them, and realised that my friends weren't going to abandon me for being a crap ineffectual parent, it was ok. With ds I am frozen, and friend's that don't deal with it so well, are frozen too, because they don't know how they should react. I suppose I am in the pre diagnosis stage, because the diagnosis we have is only a possible one, and it could be years before we have a diagnosis.

Sorry I have gone off on a tangent there, I think it was the idea that these things should be calmly discussed, sometimes it is just hard.

I have agreed with that Amber, I suppose what happens is that just as you want people to agree it could be SN they want you to agree that it might not be?

I didn't say anyone had asserted y or n, just that it was not possible to assert either

And whatever it is or isn't, for me the crucial aspect is the parents response. Did the first time my Fs DC misbehave have me chucking them out? No. I doubt I even noticed how she dealt with it.

I formed my response (to tell her my DS and I did not want to be around her DS when behaving as he was) over numerous occasions both at our home and in parks etc, with other kids. And after a while her total lack of discipline and boundaries did get noticed.

I didn't stop seeing my DN because of his behaviour because it was, at first, wondered about, and later a plan (well a number of plans until one that worked was discovered) put in place to manage any difficult behaviour.

I think it's fair to not see them together a bit FOR NOW - the child might improve.

No one finds it hard to consider.
I still wouldn't want them for seven hours, on the whims of the child, regardless. Either way.

I am lacking in effort and intolerant in that apparently. I am narrow minded and bitter, because I wouldn't thank anyone for 7 hour visitations that were hard going.
I wouldn't want anyone on a casual visit for seven hours, even if their kids were as good as gold...unless that is what had been agreed beforehand.
Otherwise I'd be bustling you out the door! Goodbye goodbye...go home now...thank you...very nice...now go home...and I'd think it a bloody inconvenience that I had to be the one to ask you to leave as well!

As though the fault lies with me - my home is my home - it's no more a drop in centre than anyone else's!

And yes...my kids come first. It's their home too.

I may x post here but hazey I did consider the panic or fog but it is possible to utter one line of "I don't know what's happening here"

Even in the midst of DN needing to be restrained by Dsis (albeit between gritted teeth) could manage 'sorry, with you in a minute' or 'he must have had something he shouldn't' etc

Not everyone would notice someone close to tears but many would and that itself suggests something up - none of that was mentioned in the OP which led me to feel the parents discipline strategy isn't working but perhaps the OP has further info if not fully scared off by us :)

As a society we should all be more tolerant. I think that means everybody making concessions and allowances for everybody else. Some people seem to be surrounded by rude, intolerant and generally angry people. I don't find this to be my own experience.

I think everybody should have consideration for the feelings of others and it isn't just down to a particular segment of the population to do that, everybody should. If they don't then resentment become the default position and nobody wants to give an inch.

For me, from the OP, it's all about the behaviour. I wouldn't put up with my child hiding under a bed, not for a minute. Why should they have to live in fear of an out of control visitor? Quite frankly, I would expect the parent to be very much more hands-on when their child is impacting on other people - for whatever reason. I wouldn't let my child do this without removing them by whatever means. It's just not on and really disrespectful to inflict bad behaviour on others. Whether there are special needs or not, the behaviour has the same impact.

I'm a tolerant, fairly placid person, it takes quite a lot to annoy me BUT, where my child is concerned, I would not stand by and let them think that not only would I put up with somebody's poor behaviour, I would put that person's needs about my child's. I wouldn't and I don't know any parent that would.

Yes, with some people I can say, 'god I haven't got a clue what is going on', or even joke about it. But honestly sometimes there is just this elephant in the room silence, as I try and stop ds punching himself in the face, or smashing his head on the coffee table, and then it just becomes, well awkward is an understatement!

Anyway - I have made that all about ME! Sorry!!