Ban on pork products in Kindergarten

[ethelmeaker]

We have been asked by the parents council at my son's Kindergarten not to bring pork products in as part of the breakfast buffet (where once a week parents bring in various types of food to be served as a buffet) The Kindergarten is in Frankfurt and is a state Kindergarten, so I don't think this is a legitimate request. The e-mail that we received stated that "as some children don't eat pork for various reasons we would like to ask parents not to bring pork products anymore."
The only reason I can think of is to do with religion and in a state Kindergarten religion has no place as far as I am concerned. Just wondered if anyone else has any thoughts on this.

Re. your last paragraph. That's not what I said at all.I said that there's a difference between you feeling happily reinforced in your vegetarian beliefs, and a child whose dietary restrictions are a consequence of its racial/ethnic origins. To deny this obvious distinction is just sophistry.

you misunderstand my take on this. I think all beliefs that an adult holds are equally valid whether they're part of an organized religion or not. Vegetarianism for ethical reasons is just as valid as not eating pork or beef for religious reasons. Tattoos for decorative reasons are just as legitimate as Sikh turbans. Et cetera

But that is not what's at issue here. The real reason for the OP's angry objections about this is that she/he feels the school is "pandering" to an ethnic minority. his/her argument is a tiny, tiny step away from "racism against the white indigenous population is the real worry". It is literally not credible that not eating pork at one, shared breakfast per week could be seen as any kind of deprivation.

Sounds like the kindergarten have tried to have some sort of nice, inclusive communal meal, and the OP has taken it as an incitement to stirring up trouble between the poor, put-upon white Christian majority, and the interlopers causing trouble (or those who are mistakenly trying to stand up for them).

should they be allowed to bring pork to breakfast? Yes, no, whatever. The real question is why does it matter?

It matters because they are being asked not to bring a particular food product in because of non-medical reasons.

No 'one step from racism' there.

Unless it is for medical reasons, there should be no restrictions on the food allowed to be brought in, only on the food that those with the restricted diet for religious or ethical reasons choose not to eat.

One person's religious or ethical choice should not take away another person's freedoms. THAT is being truly inclusive of all.

ONLY medical reasons like allergies or intolerances that cause pain and even death should trump another persons freedom of choice in this way.

I bear no issue with people choosing not to eat pork, or anything else for that matter, as long as they don't expect it to be removed from general consumption by others.

I have no issue with ensuring that there are adequate alternatives for those that choose not to eat pork, or beef, or meat at all.

What I DO have an issue with is a ban on, say, pork products from a Nursery on non-medical grounds.

Because it is taking away people who DO eat, and enjoy eating, pork products freedom of choice away.

I could understand a ban if, say, there was a DC there with an allergy to nitrates, for example, as that will cause them physical pain and even death if they have an allergy.

I can't understand a ban for religious or ethical reasons, when accidental consumption won't cause physical pain and won't cause death.

THAT'S the difference.

but consumption of such products might cause stomach upset to someone not used to them.
my mother had a friend who was brought up to keep Kosher, and when she did eat shellfish as she was not really religious, she was sick as a dog.

There IS no distinction between ethical and religious food avoidance.

The only difference is between food avoidance that won't cause pain or death on accidental ingestion or contact, and food avoidance that will cause pain or death on accidental ingestion or contact.

Anything else IS just semantics.

If it won't cause the DC physical pain or death if accidentally ingested or on contact or in minute traces in the air, then it shouldn't be banned for the other DC's.

just an example....

Stomach upset in someone not used to eating seafood could actually be down to an undiscovered allergy or intolerance, which hadn't previously been discovered due to the aforementioned avoidance.

It is far more likely to have been down to that or poor handling of said seafood, or poor storage and hygiene, than down to 'simply' because of previous avoidance, because otherwise we would all have stomach upset every time we ate something we had never eaten before.

Even my DS3 with multiple life threatening allergies doesn't react to EVERY new food he has tried. And the ones he has reacted to, he has been found to be allergic to.

well it could be the same with pork if a child not used to it were to ingest it....that's all i meant...

True, but if it isn't a known allergy, then it shouldn't be catered for with a ban. And in fact, the Anaphylaxis Campaign only advise total bans for the most severe allergies, because it teaches the allergic child to be vigilant in all situations.

Surely it should be the same for religious or ethical food avoidance?

My DS3 is anaphylactic to pineapple and kiwi on ingestion, but I wouldn't expect a ban on those, as it is only when HE eats them that he has a reaction. He is also anaphylactic to peanuts, tree nuts, lentils and chickpeas. But again, he only reacts to having eaten traces of them, so I wouldn't expect them to be banned for the other DC's.

However, his anaphylactic reaction to the smallest traces of Cow's Milk Protein is so severe that if one pinprick drop of milk, yoghurt, cheese or chocolate makes contact with his skin, not even having to have eaten or drunk it, he goes into anaphylaxis and could die.

The other severe, life threatening allergies I wouldn't expect to be banned for other DC's in a Nursery environment, I would expect the staff to be vigilant.

Dairy in all its forms, though, a ban is necessary.

So IMO if the majority of his life threatening allergies can be managed without banning those things for other DC's, I see no reason why religious or ethical food avoidances can't be managed the same way.

It's only because his allergy to dairy is SO severe, and is even from secondary contact like a pinprick drop on a table that he rests his arm on, or someone opening a yoghurt lid across the room and a drop of yoghurt flies and hits him causes anaphylaxis that a ban is necessary.

Maybe that's why I can't see the need for bans on types of food for ethical or religious reasons?

must be a lot to deal with for you couthy.....

Oh just give them all pop tarts.

Sounds like the Germans eat far too many pork based meals.

yes and the Polish are just the same,pig for every meal...my poor son crapped his bed at the age of 10 when he was staying there.....definitely not 'haram'...

It's one meal, once a week, sorry but I fail to see the issue.

Nut products are banned at our kindy. My dd loves nuts/peanut butter/nutela etc. But again, for her it is 2 meals out of a possible 21 per week. I can't get worked up about it.

I bear no issue with people choosing not to eat pork, or anything else for that matter, as long as they don't expect it to be removed from general consumption by others.

Exactly.

In my Muslim school in Saudi, we used to have lunch together once a week. I was a vegetarian, so used to love the falafels my Egyptian friend brought. I also had a sweet tooth and lived the gold-leaf cake my Saudi classmate mate brought. My Pakistani friend and I still laugh about the tray of boiled potatoes her lovely mum sent in for me. I just didn't eat any of the lamb.

It would never, ever have occurred to me or my family to demand a ban on something because we didn't eat it. My father, a true citizen of the world, would have seen such a request as the height of bad manners and very disrespectful of the culture and traditions of the country in which we were living.

I spent a lot of time in Germany as a teenager and still visit friends there. Recently, we went to an asparagus festival and before that it was a goose season at the local restaurants. There's more to German cuisine than you'd imagine from this discussion.

I'm sure "the Poles" would be similarly surprised to hear their national eating habits dismissed so summarily!

In short, unless it is truly life-threatening, I think tolerance towards and curiosity about different cultures is the only way forward.

We, as parents and influencers of the next generation, can model openness and tolerance, and make lots and lots of tiny changes that might just add up to a big enough sea change make the world a kinder place to live.

It seems to me that it is up to the people who do not want the kindergarten to do this kind, friendly, courteous thing that does not harm anyone else to justify why it shouldn't be done, rather than the other way round.

My vegetarian friends do not expect me to provide vegetarian only food when they come for dinner, and wouldn't dream of asking me to. But I do. Because it is courteous. And it is much nicer if we can all eat together than to have separate dishes.

It's not one meal, once a week. They already have pork-free lunches all week.

I pretty much agree with everything Silver said. I've lived in Germany. Their meals are, for the most part, very balanced and healthy. I'm seeing a lot of comments here which seem to suggest well, they eat differently from us, and judgypants about how much pork they eat. German pork products are the best I've ever had. I'm not surprised they feature often in their menus.

But what is the good reason for not doing this?

Maybe that's the issue - if it wasn't prescribed, then I'm sure the parents would send items that were suitable as a friendly act without giving it much thought. They would probably even adapt traditional recipes to suit to give people who would never try them a taster. People generally don't like being ordered to change their habits and tastes to suit a minority. But as MIL says - you don't go into someones house then rearrange the furniture because you don't like it.

I cook meat and halal for guests (no-one has ever asked my to accommodate their diet - I just do it to make them feel at home) and people do cook veggie for me when I go to them (I would be happy with bread and cheese but they do it to make me feel welcome, apart from the woman who made a prawn lasagne and sulked when I said I couldn't eat it - I even tried to eat around the prawns so's no to hurt her feelings but it was really really smelly).

When its a crowd of people I do a mix or go all veggie so that I'm not rushing about like a loon trying to cook loads of different food. However if someone had a food allergy, I would make sure there was none of the offending food around as contamination could occur. I have never had a muslim refuse food from me in case I used the same utensils to cook ham/non halal meat and I'm sure I haven't hospitalised anyone as a result.

I was brought up where there was/still is seperate Protestant and Catholic schools. It was a nightmare. People really really hated each other because they had weird ideas about what 'the other lot' got up to - all those weird things they did, the weird food, smells and prayers/ceremonies... they spoke Latin, and ate fish on fridays ffs!!! It would have been a hell of a lot better if we had all just been lobbed together, seen all those suspicious activities and habits close up and learned a thing or two about tolerance. I had a BF whose Protestant grandfather hadn't spoken to his daughter since she married 'one of them' (a Catholic).

Because it teaches children to respect and accommodate differences and that, unless something offered in a buffet might kill you, it's preferable to politely work around around it and make otjer choices, rather than demand its ban because it is not something you would choose to serve in your own home.

That way, in my multinational, multicultured experience, is how we raise world citizens. All of those kindergarten children will grow up, who knows where they will live, who they'll fall in love with, where they'll raise their families.

If they have a foundation of knowing, understanding and accepting that they have the power to make choices rather than demand a ban on something that affects them, that they can be proud of their own heritage and culture, but to understand and accept that people may chthen I truly believe that we will have done right by them all.

On phone!

"People may choose not to be the same" is what I meant in the last mangled sentence.

They are 4 years old. Why should the muslim children be "learning opportunities for then others? So much better that they learn that other people wre kind enough to put themselves out a tiny, tiny bit so they can share all the breakfast with their friends, rather then this little bit down this end of the table.

I'm sure "the Poles" would be similarly surprised to hear their national eating habits dismissed so summarily!
I didn't say 'the Poles' I said Polish - and I am quite sure I have spent long enough there to have formed an opinion.

I dont think we are likely to agree on this.

So should I have demanded my Saudi school ban lamb because I am vegetarian?

Even if, at that young age, it had occurred to me to do so, I am sure my parents, very sensibly, would gave refused to demand a ban as it might have had an unpleasant backlash, with my schoolmates resenting me making demands just to suit ME.

That experience taught all of us, within the framework of respecting the customs and culture of the place we lived.

I think the situation could be used to educate everyone.

One of my friends in Germany is a Scottish vegan. He has lived in the country since he was a child, and he has never starved or indeed felt the need to ask anyone to ban any kind of food. He numbers both German nationals and Turkish immigrants among the many people he counts as friends.

I think 'banning' f

Non-lethal f

Non-lethal food is wrong.