Ban on pork products in Kindergarten

[ethelmeaker]

We have been asked by the parents council at my son's Kindergarten not to bring pork products in as part of the breakfast buffet (where once a week parents bring in various types of food to be served as a buffet) The Kindergarten is in Frankfurt and is a state Kindergarten, so I don't think this is a legitimate request. The e-mail that we received stated that "as some children don't eat pork for various reasons we would like to ask parents not to bring pork products anymore."
The only reason I can think of is to do with religion and in a state Kindergarten religion has no place as far as I am concerned. Just wondered if anyone else has any thoughts on this.

It cuts both ways - those who don't eat certain things wanting others to accommodate their wishes, versus those who don't eat certain things not wishing to impose their idea on others.

I have only come across the Jains (above) who demanded - as a minority - that food for the majority be totally to their wishes. As I have said (and said and said) family and friends would never expect this treatment and would be bemused if someone were to request it on their behalf.

seeker you used the word courtesy and that definitely cuts both ways. It is not courteous to insist on things being done according to your particular needs when they are not shared by everyone. Obviously it is also courteous to take into account particular needs and to provide options to reflect those needs.

I'm not sure why the courtesy cuts one way only here

Or they could just do a pancake breakfast with fruit, honey etc toppings.

The post you carved the Nazi suggestion from started by declaring "Germans eat pork at breakfast? How odd." If we're clutching pearls over racism, why is this not considered such? Because they're just a country full of people with historical reasons etc, so we can call their traditions odd?

By itself, the "odd" comment would just be that, odd (it's "odd" that British people eat beans on toast, how's that) but coupled with the historical reasons comment, that person just seems to dislike Germans. imo.

I've already said upthread that no, I don't think going without pork for a meal is a massive inconvenience. However, it has come out that they already leave pork out for their daily lunches, so I suggested this other, once a week shared meal might be turned into a bit more of a learning experience. And that I suspect the parents of the non-pork eaters haven't even been consulted about the issue. Considering they live in Germany, they have likely already been teaching their children about the omnipresent pork. I know my non-pork eating friends in the UK have been, and their children know to ask.

Frontpaw with eggs? With flour? Not fair to allergies ;-)

Give them water and nothing else, just to be on the safe side,

"It seems to me that you either expect everyone to accommodate each other's requirements or you don't.

So, if you are going to ban pork (for religious reasons) you should also ban beef (for religious reasons), eggs, fish, seafood, peanuts, nuts, dairy and all their products for allergy reasons and wheat products for coeliacs. (Apologies for any I've missed)."

But that's just silly. I'm presuming that there were actually Muslims in the group- the request was not in case a random Muslim happened to wander in off the street?

So, if a member of the group is allergic to nuts, you don't serve food with nuts in it. If a mamber of the group is Muslim, you don't serve pork. If no peanut allergic people or Muslims, then serve nuts and pork. I's just kind and courteous qnd does nobody any harm. It's much nicer to have a buffet where everyone can try everything, without having to ask, and where the staff don't have to be hypervigilant all the time. I just can't see a downside.

I don't think other people's beliefs should infringe on those who aren't of the same belief when it comes to something as basic as eating, BUT it would be courteous for everyone to maybe put the pork separate, that way Muslim people won't feel their food has been tainted and then the non-muslim can have their pork (I am quite sure they could go for a day without it although thats not the point)

Not sure what it's like in Germany, but here (UK) this happens in quite a few places. I can understand why people get a bit pissed off, but I suppose for the sake of everyone being happy and having something to eat its a small price to pay.

Tolerance on both sides though and everyone can have their way.

" (I am quite sure they could go for a day without it although thats not the point)"

That is exactly the point. Nobody needs to eat pork for breakfast- how much nicer to have a buffet everyone can eat from without having to ask.

No, I think the point is that things are being disallowed because of others beliefs. Some people feel this is unfair - and infringes on them. I think it does too, but it wouldn't bother me. I'd just not bring pork and enjoy everything else, and hope everyone else would too.

But I can see both sides.

Someone wrote earlier that this sounded like someone well meaning who hadn't spent a lot of time with people from other cultures who are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what to eat.
If you try to accommodate everyone's needs then there would be no pork, no beef or even any and meat at all, no nuts, no food containing gluten and so on. It would be ridiculous.
My moslem friends don't mind the presence of pork as long as they are not expected to eat it.

A friend of mine has a DD who is potentially fatally allergic to a number of food items, including milk, eggs and nuts.

This girl was invited to a birthday celebration where they were to go to a film, followed by a meal at a chain restaurant. The mother rang the restaurant to check what food options there were for her DD, and although they were very helpful, she came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be possible for her to eat anything at all.

So, instead of being the freaky girl who couldn't eat anything, she chose not to attend.

Now, obviously the circumstances are different here, but could the placard-waving right-to-eat-porkers not have a little empathy with the children who would be the non-pork eating freaks?

What a tiny thing to give up, to enable everyone to feel included!

I have the opposite problem - my DS3 has an extremely severe dairy allergy, to the point where secondary contact causes anaphylaxis, and I am unable to find a preschool that will be dairy free for him.

IMO, anything other than health issues is a lifestyle choice, so only allergies and intolerances should be catered with with food bans.

Religion, vegetarianism, both lifestyle choices, not going to affect health in the slightest, so just not necessary to have bans IMO.

ONLY allergies and intolerances, that cause genuine MEDICAL problems, should mean a food is banned.

Anything else will not cause a medical problem, and therefore a ban is unnecessary.

I see seeker's point of being as considerate as possible, but... my kids are veggie. I would not feel comfortable if everyone was forced to go veggie for the once-a-week buffet simply because they are. I think that would build up resentments. I would be happy if they had a few options, and simply avoided a few other things.

Now, a food allergy is different and dangerous. Clearly if a child has an allergy, everyone needs to help protect that child by bringing only food that doesn't contain the allergen, no matter how restrictive that may be.

But for all other choices - ethical or religious - we should make sure there's plenty for everyone to eat without excluding the food that some avoid. So don't get rid of pork... just make sure there's plenty of pork-free food, too.

I am an atheist and don't think religion has any place in state education.

However, I think the OP is being unreasonable and childish. And the posters who refer to religious dietary laws as 'lifestyle choices' clearly have very little to no understanding of what it's actually like to grow up keeping kosher or halal.

It's about having a tiny bit of consideration and generosity towards others. Not making the jewish or Muslim kids feel like social pariahs. Anyway, perhaps it would do your child's health good to have a pork-free breakfast once a week...?

Being kosher or halal is a lifestyle choice, as is being veggie. As a veggie child, I never felt like a pariah when I avoided the sausage rolls and pepperoni pizza. I felt like a vegetarian. It reinforced my identity. They'll only feel like outsiders if no one makes an effort to have lots of food on the table that they CAN eat.

No, for a kindergarten-age child being kosher or halal is not "a lifestyle choice", it's a fundamental part of their lives and that of their families and communities.

That's great that your "vegetarian identity" was reinforced by having to avoid sausage rolls; however does it occur to you that perhaps there are more problematic issues around the integration of Muslim* kids in German schools than you being a vegetarian in your school, and that perhaps kicking up a childish fuss because you've been asked not to bring a specific type of food in might worsen those problems whereas being just slightly sensitive and considerate could alleviate them?

*I'm guessing they will be kids from Muslim families as there aren't many Jewish families there for some reason.

Parents make lifestyle choices, not children.

Sorry, eccentrica, but I don't agree. Be it vegetarianism or keeping kosher, it's a lifestyle choice (and not even yours at that age, but you're in training!). As opposed to an allergy, about which no one has any choice. Having meat/pork on the table doesn't make the school non-inclusive to its veggie/Jewish/Muslim students. Having plenty for everyone to enjoy, and educating children about tolerance and the celebration of difference, does just fine for inclusion.

I have consideration for others - when I send my DC's in with birthday sweets, for example, I ensure that the DC with a severe nut allergy has a safe sweet AND the Muslim DC's in their class also have a sweet that doesn't contain pork gelatine. This usually means sending both Haribo AND chocolate.

However, in a situation where bans on particular foods are being considered in any school or Nursery environment, I TRULY believe that ONLY medical necessity should be considered.

Doesn't mean that I'm not respectful of the Muslim DC's CHOICE not to eat pork products, or that I won't ensure that there is something suitable for them, because I do.

What it does mean is that unless there is a MEDICAL NEED, I don't believe that any type of food should be banned.

And IMO, medical need due to allergies or intolerances isn't a choice, but vegetarianism, or choosing to eschew foods for religious reasons IS a choice.

It may not seem like much of a choice, but it is a choice nonetheless. You can choose at any time to stop being a vegetarian, or to stop following a religion and their rules about foods.

You CAN'T choose to stop being allergic or intolerant to a particular type of food.

That's true, squoosh. Almost everything of import in a child's life is decided by an adult, particularly at kindergarten age.

CouthyMoW. The food was not banned. They were asked not to conrtibute food which a significant number of the class can't eat to the communal, shared buffet.

Bestof7. There is a significant difference between dietary restrictions for personal, ethical reasons, and dietary restrictions which are part of an entire ethnic group way of living.

Besides which, the point is much less to do with whether or not it does any harm to the Muslim kids to have pork products there, and far more to do with the question of why the OP is so angry about it? Amazing that anyone would be so worked up over a bit of sausage. Why, it's almost as if it represents something else.

What difference is it to the child in the kindergarten class if they're avoiding a food for ethical reasons or religious ones? The child still has to avoid the food.

If your argument is about inclusivity, then if there's one vegetarian child, no one should bring in any meat.

If it's about countering what you suspect is an anti-Muslim bias on the part of the OP, then I don't think banning pork from the breakfast buffet is the way forward. Surely that would make anyone inclined to feel threatened by the Other feel even more threatened?

I'm with CouthyMow. Ban a food for medical reasons only.

By the way, your argument that ethical reason = flimsy and religious = totally reasonable, is suspect in itself. If the child were vegetarian because 7th Day Adventist, then it's okay to ban all meat at the buffet. But if they're veggie because Mum's a hippie, then bring on the bacon.