Ban on pork products in Kindergarten

[ethelmeaker]

We have been asked by the parents council at my son's Kindergarten not to bring pork products in as part of the breakfast buffet (where once a week parents bring in various types of food to be served as a buffet) The Kindergarten is in Frankfurt and is a state Kindergarten, so I don't think this is a legitimate request. The e-mail that we received stated that "as some children don't eat pork for various reasons we would like to ask parents not to bring pork products anymore."
The only reason I can think of is to do with religion and in a state Kindergarten religion has no place as far as I am concerned. Just wondered if anyone else has any thoughts on this.

[seeker]

But nobody is "demanding". And nothing is being banned. The kindergarten is asking that people do a kind and courteous thing.

[drjohnsonscat]

I think various posters have given a perfectly good alternative vision of courtesy which involves both sides. One side shows awareness that some people eat pork and it's fine. The other side shows awareness that some dishes should be suitable for all sorts of people (veggie, non pork eaters, non beef eaters, coeliacs, diabetics, whatever). If we go along like this, it's highly unlikely that every single contributor will bring sausages. And even if they do, it's for the non sausage eaters to redress this by bringing their alternatives to share and open people's minds to the deliciousness of a non-pork-based breakfast. This vision does not involve elevating one group's views to the level of a rule where everyone else's views are just preferences.

[SilverBaubles33]

Hey seeker, no those were my words and possibly strong ones because it's an issue close to my heart - the experiences I have had as an outsider in many different cultures have informed my opinion that it is almost always more courteous to include everyone as much as possible. I simply don't think that asking the majority of pupils to do without something because a minority object on religious or ethical grounds is a particularly kind thing to do.

You didn't answer my question about the lamb?

It occurs to me writing this that I will soon be sitting at my in-laws table for a Christmas celebration. I'm a European Jew, they're American Protestants. They will number 26 and one of their centrepieces will be a Virginia Ham which they all love and is a huge part of their tradition.

I always made it clear that I had absolutely no problem with it being on the table; my elder dd andI have plenty of other options (in fact, there is SO much food on the table..!). What I will look forward to and remember most is the love and fun and celebration we will all share.

Perhaps this is the issue? Perhaps we worry that there will be no welcome, no inclusion of those in a minority, that they will suffer persecution and worse for their beliefs.

Sadly, that is the case sometimes. But as a child not much older than those KG kids, I learned that this doesn't always need to be the case; there is unkindness and exclusion aplenty, but much can be avoided with a big smile and an open mind.

I think perhaps I might have been lucky to meet tolerant and broadminded people all over the world and therefore number Rastafarians, Muslims and morris dancers among my close friends !

Anyway, it's been a fascinating discussion, I have to go and wish you all a peaceful and happy afternoon.

[GhostShip]

But what is the good reason for not doing this?

I don't think they should have to justify their reasons for not wanting something they like banned.

[SantaFrontPaws]

Maybe because no-one had asked for a ban on pork - it has been assumed by the school on the behalf of some of the pupils. DH would be really pissed, just as I would if anyone tried to make a gathering wholly veggie for my benefit.

Morris Dancers - oh Silver, I do worry about you! I have to say, your parties must be a hoot!

[seeker]

It hasn't been banned, ffs, they were just asked not to bring it. But OK, it's a fundamental human right to eat pork sausages 24 hours a day, and how very dare anyone suggest that out of kindness and courtesy so that 4 year old's can fully share a buffet breakfast that people refrain from them for one meal.

[SantaFrontPaws]

Seeker - are you Muslim or Jewish? DH is Muslim (as are his family). They say its a crock, and wouldn't want it. As someone with a restricted diet, neither would I.

No fundamental rights issue.

[seeker]

No I'm not Muslim or Jewish. There is a big difference between an adult who can choose what he wants to eat in an informed way, and 4 year olds, who would have to be told "you can't have any of these things, only those things"

I just can't see why it's an issue. It's not as if pork is an essential food group!

[LaCiccolina]

Do many people bring pork? Are they inundated with the stuff?!

Personally I don't like it. I feel those of religious persuasion should avoid that plate but I'm darned if I wouldn't serve it for fear of offence. I find it stupid. Just put it on a different plate/place. Hardly complicated.

I'd take 100 cocktail sausages and say I never got the mail.... Just to be bloody minded. I think it's badly worded and lazy but maybe not out of the realms of sensible entirely depending on their true reasons!

[drjohnsonscat]

Seeker everybody gets your point but we haven't heard why it's so terrible for the children affected just to avoid the pork dishes - presumably it's not a free for all so there will be help for them to make the right choices. Like people do all the time without imposing their choices on others. That's courteous too but you are insisting only the non Muslim group should be courteous.

It's really not at all a big deal but it's interesting that in your vision of courtesy, only one group must adapt their behaviour.

[seeker]

Of course it's not terrible for the Muslim children to select from a smaller range of dishes. It's just nicer if they don't have to.

And of course courtesy goes both ways. If the Muslim parents had demanded that this be done, then I would be the first to say that they were being unreasonable and discourteous. But they haven't. As I said, when my vegetarian friends come to dinner, I cook vegetarian food. They don't demand, ask, or even expect that I do. But I like everyone at my table to be able to eat everything- and it's no hardship for meat eaters to have a meat free meal. Just as it's no hardship for pork eaters to have a pork free breakfast.

[SilverBaubles33]

Whatever the tone of the request, I think it's an unreasonable one; there is no actual danger to these kids. I think that the situation has the potential to backfire unpleasantly, whoever made the request.

(I don't think that has been made clear? Correct me if it has!)

As someone who doesn't eat pork for religious reasons I manage very nicely food-wise in Germany, as I did as a vegetarian all over the world.

If I came to dinner at your house as a vegetarian, I'd be delighted if you made me special food; that would be kind and I'd feel very welcome.

If, as I have done, I went to a school to enjoy a shared meal in Germany and discovered that my friends could not eat certain foods in case it offended me, on a permanent basis, that would make me horribly uncomfortable, because the pork in the room will not kill me. Asking for it to be removed isn't going to help me make friends or feel a real part of the community.

Imposing my beliefs on others who don't share them is plain bad manners. I think it sends all kinds of wrong messages. I appreciate others may see this differently, but that's my empirical observation.

Anyway, I was stupid enough not to buy cakes at the gluten-free launch and a wheat-intolerant mum is coming for coffee so I have to wrestle with xanthate/anthrax/some gum thing!!

Happy weekends all.

[fuzzywuzzy]

You know when people complain about how muslim parents won't allow their children to come for tea etc. This is the reason.
The disdain and the insistence that consuming pork won't kill a person is really horrible, it tells me that most parents would delight in feeding my children pork because they think it's their right to consume it. Which is fine, but I would not place my children in a situation where people in authority or positions of repsonsiblity would purposely try and get my children to accidentally consume food containing pig meat. It would greatly distress my children if they accidentally ate it.
I have a friend, who's ex husband gives the children a choice between pig meat or pig meat or pig meat. The older child has been known to go hungry for a whole day during contact, the youngest will eat it but onyl when she cant bear to be hungry any longer. My friend has told her children that it's OK, they musn't stay hungry and to eat what is given. But the children themselves are very very distressed by it.

No, pork products will not kill a Jewish/Muslim/vegetarian child however accidentally consuming foods containing it is very distressing for the child and the parents (yes). The same is not true for people who do eat pork, eating non pork products does not cause distress or mental anguish to them.

This point is apparently hard to empathise.

This pre-school is not imposing a blanket ban on pork, just requesting that food containing pork not be bought to share during the communal breakfast.

What are the child to adult ratio during this breakfasts? Little children will sometimes pick food off eachothers plates or share food, my children certainly do the latter and they're a lot older.

I imagine the no pork request would also ease the teachers responsibility and let them enjoy the meal without the anxiety of ensuring children aren't sharing food off eachothers plates or attempting to eat the wrong foods.

[CarlingBlackMabel]

Fuzzywuzzy, I hear you! And please be re-assured that it is only on MN that I see people talking like this. No-one, not one parent, in our multi-everything school and local community would be so disdainful, and everyone would take great care to ensure that a veggie child is not fed chicken, a muslim child is not fed pork, that fairy allergy is acknowledged etc etc.

Everyone I know sees this as a normal hospitable way to behave towards each other.

While not imposng bans, of course.

[CarlingBlackMabel]

er, DAIRY allergy .

Though I am sure if a child was allergic to fairies most parents would ask the tooth fairy to come on a different day.

[seeker]

Fairy allergy is fantastic! I think I developed fairy allergy when my dd was obsessed by the rainbow fairy books. I just developed this irrational rage and started frothing at the mouth whenever I came anywhere near a fairy.

[CarlingBlackMabel]

at Seeker's fairy allergy.

[SantaFrontPaws]

You cant ban faries. I like them. Goblins maybe, kelpies definately, but not faries.

And someone who would try to get a child to eat something they can't is a bloody weirdo. A guest in your house is a guest. Ask him if you should feed his kids anthrax next time.

Although it wasnt a 'ban' (didnt OP say that pork wasnt served in the school anyway) if you are asked not to bring something and you did, the teacher would say 'we asked you not to...' So it is a ban really. Or it should be because wouldbnt they need to double check ingredients anyway for hidden pork (remember, breadsticks used to contain lard!).

Any parent who refuses playdates 'in case...' (Unless their kids friend is the child of weirdo), is giving out the message that what their friend eats is wrong/dirty/immoral... And that the adults are untrustworthy, mad or ignorant. Not very friendly, eh?

I always ask what people can/can't eat when they come over.

[SilverBaubles33]

The disdain and the insistence that consuming pork won't kill a person is really horrible, it tells me that most parents would delight in feeding my children pork because they think it's their right to consume it.

Really? This is what that tells you? Honestly?

I have no doubt such idiots and bigots exist, but to assume that everyone who believes pork does not kill would behave like this makes me wonder how anyone with such a belief can function in a multicultural society.

I can't decide if this is high farce or low tragedy! either way, I have nothing more to contribute.

[SantaFrontPaws]

I think the ex husband is playing mind games with the wife. There is more than pork on the agenda there. I don't think anyone really thinks that friends, colleagues, neighbours... are all out to feed the non-pork kids pig. What a rather odd suggestion (and I find it rather racist).

[fuzzywuzzy]

The ex husband is being cruel, he gives the children spam (all I know is that that is not naice ham and prolly not something he himself would eat), he's making a point (at the expense of his relationship with his children).

It's not racist at all, this thread is really shocking to me, there's a very strong reason why we dont consume pork I'm not bothered about what everyone eats, but for one meal to make it pleasant and easy for everyone not having pig meat doesn't sound like a big ask.

I would happily do the same, if asked for vegetarian food, dairy free, nut free. I'd want the children to be able to have a meal where they can freely socialise and choose their food without worry.
I presume lunch and other meals can be supplied with as much of whatever the parents want?

And yes silverbaubles the answers on this thread are a real eye opener for me. I would not want my children to go to an acquaintences house for a meal incase they have this attitude of pig wont kill you so I'll let them accidentally eat it, which appears to be normal going by this thread, I'd only let them go to close friends who I know would respect mine and my childrens dietry requirements. It's not always easy to ascertain what contains which meats at parties.

My children would be hugely upset at accidentally eating pork.

[Jins]

Don't assume it's normal fuzzywuzzy

I would be mortified if I accidentally served something that someone couldn't eat. I cannot comprehend it being done deliberately

[SilverBaubles33]

They wouldn't get it round mine, I'm Jewish. Would you let your kids come to me?

[SantaFrontPaws]

The ex is a loon - he sounds abusive. And it is racist to hold the opinion that 'they' would purposely feed a Muslim or Jewish child pork even if they know that it is against their religious beliefs. It is implying racist intentions on their part by making sweeping assumptions on motivation and intent.

A Muslim child would hardly be invited over to Mr Griffins house for tea, would they, so why assume that people not of your religion would feel the same way as people like him? It is making a huge assumption. No one is saying that everyone ought to be force fed pork - but that the preferences of a minority shouldn't necessarily override the majority (especially when it is requested in their behalf).

[fuzzywuzzy]

silverbaubles yes I would and I'd have your children over too and ensure everything I served was kosher. I would not want to cause upset to a guest in my house.