to dump my BF for going with a prostitute...

[snailfiddler]

... 24 years ago.

On a lads holiday to Amsterdam.

I despise the idea of prostitution, strip clubs, porn, etc, but I don't know if I would dump him over it since it is so long ago, as long as he is remorseful and understands how wrong it was.

DH has watched porn and gotten lap dances (before me) but now that he's been educated on the issues he's horrified that he ever did.

I may well show him this thread, I have considered it, yes.

And I do value all contributions to this thread, have I implied otherwise?

I am just thinking that lots of people have said things along the lines of "poor chap he's being punished for bring honest" and I am sure that there are many people in relationships with partners who have done bad things in the past and kept it secret.

I do appreciate his honesty and the fact that I am in an informed position to consider wether I can accept his past behaviours or believe they define him forever.

The term forgiveness has been used a lot but I think acceptance is probably more relevant.

My first instinct was "yuck" and to LTB. I think I need to either accept his past or let him go. It's only fair on both of us.

BTW he was in the army at the time. To me that's irrelevant but it does seem to be a common theme when reading about others poster's experiences

Or maybe being in the army is relevant? An all male environment with lots of peer pressure and entrenched misogynistic views. But at the same time I don't really want to be going out with a "sheep" do I?

"may well have freely consented to the transaction."

Ooooh, possible consent.

How reassuring.

Well said, badinage.

I think the army thing is quite likely a big influencing factor. it does seem common from my experience with army friends

Athing, that wasn't my point, and you know it

Christ lets make sure we all have squeaky clean pasts because god forbid we get a partner 24 years down the line....

snail said "but at the same time I don't really want to be going out with a sheep, do I?"

Um, without going over the obvious yet again, someone who may have been a sheep 24 years ago isn't necessarily a sheep now. I suspect there are few of us, male or female, who haven't succumbed to some peer pressure or just gone with the flow of a group at some time in our lives, most notably when we are younger.

He's been honest. You don't like what you heard. He obviously thinks enough of you to have been honest with something a lot of people probably would have kept hidden. Unfortunately it is something you seem unable to get past. Not your fault, not his fault. Don't string it out any longer and let the bloke go and find someone who won't judge him for something he did a lifetime ago. And you to find someone with a past that is acceptable to you.

OP, you asked a while back about the general concept of forgiveness and second chances. That got shut down a bit, but I do think it's an important point.

I think I come to this a bit differently because while being very anti-prostitution (and anti-porn, etc.) I also have known a lot a lot of people in my life who have done very bad things in their past. (Thanks to my dysfunctional upbringing and years spent in dodgy scenes.)

I personally think, especially if we are talking 20+ years ago, that the act is important but even more important is whether they have sorry to use a religious term repented of that act. Not just that they are embarrassed, but that they have really repented.

So for example, I have known some people who were involved in gangs when younger, who turned their lives around and now do a lot in their community to keep kids out of gangs.

It sounds like your boyfriend is ashamed and remorseful, but if it were me, I would want to see real repentence. For me, this would mean: A) a real understanding of why it was wrong, not just from his perspective but from the perspective of women; and B) a real determination to never again treat women misogynistically or badly. Ideally it would also include C) a yearly donation to a charity that helps women escape prostitution.

I just thought this might help in terms of framing your discussion with him. It's not really about whether you can live with his mistake, it's about whether you are comfortable with his emotional and moral reaction to committing a wrongful act. It's about whether you are living in the same ethical sphere.

If you are not convinced, let him go -- not to punish him, but because it would just mean you are not morally compatible.

Good post, dreaming

Being ashamed of something seedy because it makes you look seedy isn't the same as true contrition.

Re moving on, yes I think it is generally a good thing to put things that you cannot change behind you. Otherwise you end up sinking under the weight of all the baggage. Obviously this is not easy or indeed possible for some. I find it sad that one episode in a life can define the outcome of the rest of that life. It's like an extra punishment over and above the initial hurt.

Thanks, AThing -- yes contrition is the word I'm looking for.

For me, this would mean: A) a real understanding of why it was wrong, not just from his perspective but from the perspective of women; and B) a real determination to never again treat women misogynistically or badly. Ideally it would also include C) a yearly donation to a charity that helps women escape prostitution

God how patronising. If I were this man and my apology and my remorse were not accepted, I would be walking out of the door. It was 24 years ago. Now unless we're all perfect, I don't think we should be acting holier than thou with a little added high and mighty.

No wonder people aren't more honest, especially if they're met with such attitudes.

Yes Ghost. Don't ask for honesty if you can't handle the truth!!

Why is it patronising?

It's the difference between:

1. I'm remorseful because it makes me feel bad and seedy.

and

2. I'm remorseful because I contributed to an industry that harms other people.

For me personally, I would want to be clear which kind of remorseful he was.

I am not definitely not trying to be holier than thou. I have done a lot of things in my youth I am not proud of.

But let's say I told my boyfriend that when I was young and drunk I stole from shops, and I feel bad about it. But then I went on to sort of justify it and minimise the harm to the shops and just blame it on my youth.

Some people might be totally fine with that, other people might think, hang on, why is she justifying it? Why isn't she just saying it was wrong, period?

I don't think I'm the worst person in the world for what I did but I definitely don't try to justify it either. I think that's the difference. It's not clear from the OP how much her boyfriend is trying to shrug it off and that's probably why she feels uneasy.

I'd like to think that most men understood or really cared or thought about the causes and effects of prostitution but I doubt they really give it much thought whether they have ever used one or not. And I do think it's important where someone ends up in life than where they started. I've had quite an uneventful, easy life - easy for me to a degree growing up in strong and disciplined family, never having to face some of the things other folk did growing up. I actually do admire those who despite a not so good start and who possibly made bad decisions then go on to leave that behind and change their life around.

Interesting that the higher up the financial ladder these men are, the less likely they are to buy women.
What a bloody daft comment. Doubt Cynthia Payne would agree!

In the very early days of going out with DH, he went on a Stag weekend to Amsterdam. He said one of the men in the Party started acting bizarrely and was really trying to pressure others into visiting Prostitutes. He said it was like he was on a mission. He gave DH's friend, who was single, a really hard time because he believed he should be taking advantage of the situation. He couldn't understand why he wasn't interested. This man was in a relationship with two small children and slept with two prostitutes. He tried to force a very drunk Stag to follow him, pushing him through the door. As pissed as he was the groom to be stumbled out five minutes later.
It does not follow that because you are pissed and because you are in a group of men and because someone may be pressurising you, that you then 'inevitably' sleep with a prostitute. You have a choice.
When the Stag group came home they were looking at this guy in a very different light and it wasn't a good one.

It's very early days here - for me every time i got into bed with him i would be thinking of that girl and the decision he made all those years ago. And yes, people change and he was honest to tell you, but i wouldn't want to carry on.

I totally agree with that Begonia.

I wouldn't want to live in a world where there was no forgiveness, where you were judged forever by the mistakes of your youth.

But, well, blame my Catholic upbringing but I don't think it should be automatic either, I think people should really try to be contrite and where possible make up for their mistakes. Not as some kind of punishment but just as a kind of karmic rebalancing.

It's one of the 12 steps, isn't it? Going back to people you have hurt and asking forgiveness? I have had a few addict friends who have stolen from me, one of them successfully made it through the steps, and as part of it came to me one day and formally asked me to forgive him. Of course I had forgiven him but it was a really important part of his process.

I think it's treating your partner like a child, it's like a power thing. You MUST prove to me, I need more proof..

Id say if you cant accept that it happened in the past, leave him. Not put him through this unfair ti-raid.

If it was a man pressuring a woman about something in her past and wanting her to prove herself this would be a whole different thread entirely.

See, that's interesting, I really don't feel like it's a power thing at all.

I wouldn't be approaching it like you must prove this to me, more just asking what his thoughts are and then reflecting what that says about him as a person.

To use a more gender-neutral example -- several people have brought up the scenario where someone has been racist in the past. Now, can I make someone prove to me they're not a racist anymore? Not really, you can't read someone's mind. But I think, by talking to them in more detail about how they feel about what they did, you can tell a lot about whether they have really changed or whether there's something to worry about.

I do agree that if you can't accept what someone has done, you should probably move on. I just don't think you need to automatically accept it, it's fair enough to ask some questions and see what it says about the person.

8 months is not long. It's not like she has, say, ten years of marriage and kids experience with him to have a deeper understanding of what he's like as a person.

I have a friend I worked with. He grew up in a poor little disadvantaged town. His family were poor and abusive, think alcohol and physical and sexual abuse was normal. I'm sure he was no saint but his parents put him in care for a while as a child. He left school and took the decision to move away from all that he knew and where hardly anyone ever left. He did nothing amazing, did run of the mill, manual jobs, is married to his long term partner, held down a mortgage and has now moved into working with kids with aspergers etc. he goes home and all his old friends who he left behind are either dead, in prison or addicts of some kind. As, I said nothing amazing and I imagine he can still be a bit of a rogue but I have a lot of admiration and respect for him and actually what is quite a big achievement. I really prefer not to know some of the things he did in his youth and take him as he is now. Sorry, for banging on.

GhostShip I don't know that it would be different, tbh. See how people who admit being the OW are often treated. If they repent - and especially if they have had a bad time, they may be forgiven.

Obloquy abounds on mumsnet, and while some like the soi-disant moral authority their perceived bully pulpit gives them it's important to remember that opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one. And they are each as important as each other to someone.

There are what look like majority views, but they are just that, views.
Tomorrow? There'll be another thread. If OP or other posters don't like what they hear - they don't have to.

Thin skins are no advantage here. I suspect it was AF who told me that.

Never forgive anyone's mistakes ever. That is the way forward for humans to move on and personally grow and be better people.

It amazes me that people say this isn't about punishment and then say he should do yearly 'chores' to prove his remorse and that he has changed.

Would also love to see this if the sexes were reversed.

Could I ask AnyFuckingDude if she thinks my dh is a rapist?

Because he went to Thailand, had a massage and the woman initiated something more that he went along with. He didn't go in with the intention of paying anyone for sex, he went for a Thai massage and was unprepared for what happened but made no attempt to stop her.

He felt dirty and ashamed afterwards and felt like just another grubby westerner. He told me when we got together because he felt ashamed. He told me all about his sexual past and I told him about mine. Because we were serious about each other and wanted openness and honesty in our relationship. I don't see that as weird. I thought that's what everyone did?

That incident was around 18 years ago. He's now a father of two and my husband. He is the kind of man who would interfere to stop a fight, who would and has stopped men from harrassing girls, who actually fell for a prostitutes story about needing money for nappies (whilst trying to put her arms around him) and so he went into the nearest shop and bought her a load of nappies, who stopped for a pregnant hitchhiker on the hard shoulder of the motorway who had run from her abusive boyfriend and took her to the nearest refuge, who helped me pick up a drug addict from my doorstep and drive her home. I would like to know AFD if you still think that my dh is a rapist for what he did 18 years ago and whether or not I should have dumped him based on that relevation or whether I was right to put it in the past and see the changed man in front of me?

Not everyone can be condemned by an incident in the past. This bf may or may not be an arse, but to condemn everyone as you seem to be doing is wrong. IMO