to think if you do the fun stuff you should attend the duty stuff aswell.

[missmapp]

Ds1 goes to Beavers, it is a lovely group and they do lots of fun events, camp fires, night time walks, activity days, visits to lots of exciting places- these are always well attended. As it is Rememberance Sunday tomorrow , they have been asked to go to the Church Parade.

I wasn't sure of the time, so phoned a few other Mum's- all have said their ds does not want to go, so they won't be attending. Now Ds normally goes to football on a Sunday morning, but I have told him he needs to go to the service as it is part of being a Beaver. It saddens me that lots turn up to the fun things, but this will be a low turn out ( as it was last year-only 2my ds and 2 others)

So, AIBU ?

No, pictures. That is 'go well and safely'

Taps is different, and does have a faith element.

We were reasonably well represented this morning. I had two sparks (like rainbows), four brownies, six guides, and six pathfinders (like rangers). It was -19 at our cenotaph.

The scouts had six across all three sections represented.

The 'service' takes place in the school gymnasium (for everyone - it's just the school nearest the memorial) and despite the cold weather, I was very proud that my girls had made the effort.

This is about remembering veterans of any war, and anyone that has served, including (and especially) those that lost their lives. On behalf of those who couldn't be bothered to show...

I suspect that those who couldn't possibly miss footie or rugby for a memorial service would have chucked their kit in the bottom of the wardrobe and ran to the guide hut if it had been a Halloween party or camp/ pack holiday that had clashed with their weekly sport session...

We all make our own choices. Fortunately, those who lives we remember today weren't so selfish.

For what it's worth dd regulator missed parties & all manner of fun activities if it clashes with dance.

Thinknive just remembered Taps. Is it Day is done gone the sun etc

YABU

As has been already said Scouts and Guides are not Christians organisations. Dd is not a Christian, I am a Pagan. I would feel distinctly uncomfortable at the COE service as would dd. I would feel very uncomfortable at the rememberence day ceremony too as am not British and have had many horrible and nasty things said both to me and about my fellow countrypeople by people who are in the local Legion. So I won't go and will remember those who have died in all wars across the world in my own way as will dd. We have read some war poems (Sigfried Sassoon) and listened to some music and reflected on those who died in futile wars.

We all spend lots of time and energy helping out at the Scouts and volunteer to help at many of their fundraisers etc. so dd is not just doing the 'fun' stuff.

Yes it is.

Dd1 also dances. Life is a balance. I have to say though, if you are routinely pissing everyone off by not turning up to stuff, it makes it difficult to plan numbers wise. Dd1 is a competitive dancer and her choreo class means she is late for pathfinders every single week. But she always gets there at the same time, and they know she is coming. Part of being a member is commitment.

Remembrance Day is different. She doesn't get to miss it, for dance or anything else.

(And yes, her school did have a Remembrance Day service on Friday. She also has the attend the town one and represent girl guides. A compulsory school service does not release her from that duty)

My 9yo with cerebral palsy was at the cenotaph in -19 as well, and marched in the parade. Her only decision was whether she would walk or use her wheelchair, because last year she got left behind.

CBA, indeed.

I was in two minds whether to attend the service today with DS1 who has been a Beaver since start of Autumn term.

We did go to church and DS sat almost silent throughout taking it all in. DS2 (3yrs) however was quite well behaved for him, but during the the 2 minutes silence was whispering repeatedly I'm hungry, eventually I rustled through my hand bag for some biscuits.

At that time, for respect of everyone there (significantly the lady next to us in tears for a lost loved one :-( ) I'd wished we stayed at home.

YANBU

You can't sign up to a Christian organisation and happily go off camping but not to things like the remembrance parade.

Children should be taught about commitment.

Of my Beaver colony only one didn't attend or send apologies. It's made clear that as a Scout group we attend Remembrance Sunday, it's the only weekend event there is, other than camps/sleepovers.
There were over 200 DCs in uniform this morning at the parade, as the names on the village Roll of Honour were read out one of my old Beavers listed his great great uncle and great great grandfather amongst the fallen.
We view it as a community event - as do the vast majority of parents.

From the scouts own website

"Spiritual development

The Scout Association is an open association.

While requiring all Members to make the Promise which includes 'Duty to God' or ?Love God', The Scout Association does not identify itself with any one religion. There is no established Church within the Association."

As such requiring children in the scouts to attend a Christian church service that they would not feel comfortably at or which is against the faith they hold is wrong IMO. If the remembrance day service is a civil service and the children in the group are going to be respected for attending then that is fine. I didn't feel that dd and I would be welcomed by some of the veterans and as such we kept away out of respect for them as it was their ceremony of rememberence.

Tarantula, from what I saw today the veterans were thrilled that children were there. Their individual beliefs didn't matter a jot.

How sad Tarantula. And how respectful of you

Are you of a nationality that was on an opposing side. Incredibly sad but I do understand forgiveness is difficult in the horrors of war.

YANBU

I was disappointed to find only 50% of my Brownies turned up this morning. Of the other 50%, only one had bothered to explain they might not be there. It isn't good enough. One of those who didn't appear was supposed to be a flag escort so I had to ask one of the other girls at the last minute. I am really not very hapy at all.

Tarantula, I think you are wrong. I am a veteran (not of the first or second ww, obv, but I was also thinking of the fallen from opposing sides, and mourning the necessity for war at all. I spent a fair percentage of the ceremony today specifically thinking about this type of thing.

I am uncomfortable with the ceremony of remembrance being run as some sort of Crusade (with a very deliberate capital). It is in remembrance of the fallen of whatever faith. I served alongside Muslims, Hindus, atheists, and remember all of them. I'm not partisan in my feelings of loss. The 'enemy' losses are no less keenly felt, I am sure.

Given that the majority of soldiers and service personnel are doing the bidding of others, I feel no difficulty with this. All such losses are a tragedy.

ComeIntoTheGarden
Thank you very much :)

Fellowship
Your Promise would've been:
"I Promise that I will to my best
To do my duty to God
To serve the Queen
To help other people
And to keep the [Brownie] Guide Law"

When duty was changed to love country was added to Queen. Which I still can't help but feel is tautologous...

pictures
There are two versions of Taps, the first used at the end of meetings & the second used at the close of daytime events.

1. Day is done, gone the sun, from the seas from the hills from the sky. All is well, safely rest, God is nigh.
2. Thanks and praise, for our days, 'neath the sun, 'neath the stars, 'neath the sky. As we go, this we know, God is nigh.

Beavers began in the 1980s - my older brother was one & I was terribly envious of his grey uniform tracksuit. Sigh.

tarantula
I think you are right that if a Remembrance Service is part of a service of worship of another faith & an individual would not feel comfortable attending on those grounds it is reasonable NOT to attend. The expectation with the Guides & Scouts at my church is that they will appear because they're Catholic children in Catholic Units so they should be getting themselves to Mass regardless. We make it clear when children join that attending Church Parades is part of being a Scout/Guide with us. However, when we had a Muslim Brownie, we didn't expect her to come to Church Parades - though she would have been very welcome to come & sit with us during Mass to show she's part of the Unit & learn a little more about the faith her peers follow - and she chose not to, which was fine. When she was a Seconder she came with us on our Remembrance Sunday outing & so could join in like that.

I admire the thought & consideration you put into your decision not to attend your local ceremony today but find it sad you've had experiences that have made you fear rejection &/or worry your presence would be construed as disrespectful/inappropriate

Nickname
How very frustrating. I had a handful have to miss & only one of said handful didn't give apologies in advance - knowing the family I'm expecting to be told at this week's meeting why it was she was away. Stern Words at your next Unit meeting? Do you have a points system in place? my mob Unit respond very well to the magic of Points And Prizes (done by Six rather than individually) & there are Points For Parades, including a quarter of a point for apologies for absence being given in advance...

madwoman
All your comments have had me nodding in agreement. Which is a good look alone in a dark room

Sadly you v definitely have a point about what people are willing to miss usual commitments for. Meh.

I remember we used to sing the "Day is Done" taps, for the first two years of my being a Guide.

We then had a Canadian girl join us for 6 months, her cousin was a Guide at our troop, and she taught us their taps, which we took on after that as we all liked it more than our version! That went:

Softly fades the light of day
As our campfire dies away
Silently each Guide should ask
Have I done my daily task
Have I kept my honour bright
Can I guiltless sleep tonight
Have I done and have I dared
everything to be prepared?

We sang it at all counties to show off and the Head Guider for our county went mental! Miserable old crone!

Its worth thinking that, with Guides and Brownies (can't talk for Scouts) we had patrol names, none of which had any Religious connotation at all. I was a Sprite in Brownies- the fact that Churches hate anything to do with imps or fairies or things like Harry Potter speaks for itself! I was then a Thistle in Guides as my Captain was Scottish as was my Dad, being an "honorable Kentish Celt" as I was known I was drafted in to that patrol!

However, I still firmly believe that parade is important, to say thanks to the church for letting us borrow your hall (and let's face it, how many other clubs are there now where kids no matter their background or age can learn a skill, make friends, have fun and be safe for £1.50 a time?) and to show the community that you have pride in your association with the Guides.

Camp was a week way for £20 including food! I went with a Brownie Group when I was 15 and doing my Service Flash to the Isle Wight, and that was about £30 including food, activities and the boat crossing and hire of a van to get the kids from Kent to Portsmouth too.

We used to sing softly fades the light of day sometimes too! Reading those words the tune came flooding back.

It was to the tune if oh Tannenbaum

Pictures - Beavers became 'official' members of the Scout Association in 1986 (they've just had their 25 yr birthday celebrations) although they were meeting as 'associate members' for some time efore that. I startd (as a Leader, not a Beaver!) in 1984. So not really new, no.

Our beaver group gave us a general information timetable weeks ago and then no mention of it AT ALL until beaver night last week, was the first time they had the kids practice marching etc. too. I didn't really think much about it until that beaver night because I'm not from the UK and we focus on ANZAC day. We already had other plans for Sunday and considering the lack of information and preparation leading up to the march I don't feel too bad we didn't go. But I do think you have a good point OP and if we didn't have other commitments we would have gone.

I left girl guides in 1988 when our leader left.

pictures nice to know we weren't the only ones! It was all round at county when we did.

It was to that tune too.

Were we the only county who used to wave our arms back and forth when we sang it? I always found that weird.

I used to adore the Jamborees, we used to have themes at ours, one year we did nations and we got given Ireland, so we did Molly Malone, and had green skirts, white shirts and green crepe paper sashes. The next year was Children's books and we did Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Memorable as my Mum made me a Licorice Allsort costume, the pink and black square, and I could barely sit down or walk all day as it was huge!

am getting very jealous of all your lovely Brownie/Guide songs, my DS is in Beavers and the only song they seem to sing is the "eat eat banana" song, which never ends well

Yanbu. I think people who claim atheism as an excuse are missing the point of it all. You sign up to 'do your duty to god' or whatever the pledge is. You can't pick and choose so you get to do hiking and camping but not remembrance parade. In any case it's about honouring the fallen. Interpret it how you like. They still gave their lives to preserve our way of life. What is wrong with children learning to appreciate that?

They aren't missing the point at all. Atheism is of course a "good excuse" for not going to church.
Of course you can pick and choose, unless you honestly think you can discriminate towards children on the basis of their religions?

Fellowship - Canadian 'taps' is exactly the same as British 'taps'.

Her specific unit might have adopted 'softly' incorrectly, but the correct closing for guides in both countries is 'taps'. and I run a Canadian girl guide unit now.

The only difference is a small amendment to the line 'from the sea, from the hills, from the sky', which has sometimes been changed to lake and mountains instead, as it makes more sense to majority of Canadian guides. (Y'know - land of the silver birch, and all that jazz, moose included).

Of course, some individual units do occasionally do things differently - sometimes because a leader unfamiliar with the section takes over, or for whatever other reason. But your Canadian friend's unit would have reverted to 'taps' at any communal or group event. Some units close with both - campfires are often closed with 'softly' here - but taps is always last.