to want to drop a foreign friend?

[livingintheeast]

Firstly let me get one thing straight - I am not a rascist and I have a foreign mother (a genuine one not one of those that people sometimes invent just to prove how PC they are). It is a real bugbear of mine that my foreign friend will constantly talk to her lo in their mother tongue. They are both perfectly capable of speaking english - the mother talks to me/my lo in english and the lo talks to me/my lo in english. Personally I find it blooming rude and so irriatating that I'm not sure I want to be around them much at all. Even my lo has resorted to asking me (in her 2.5 year old way) what they are saying - and I don't have a clue! I know my friend wants her lo (also 2.5) to know her mother tongue but surely on a playdate, with english people etc it's just common courtesy to speak in english. AIBU?

Sorry, I haven't read all of this thread, but YABVU. If it were two adults holding a full blown conversation, I would consider that rude. But in this case, where a mother is bringing up her child to be bilingual, YABU. In fact, why don't you take full advantage and ask your friend to teach you and your dc a few basic words and sentences? Free language class, bonus!

I didn't read the whole thread, but I am flabbergasted! I was raised bilingual. My dad always reiterated how rude it was to not speak in the shared language when in a group. I think that is one of the major points of being bilingual....to know which language to use.

I have read most of the thread now, but am still bemused. Why do people not speak the majority language when in group situations? Are you mostly in relationships with someone with a different mother tongue? Because that probably is a little more difficult, but aren't your children used to switching between languages? Or do you both speak the same (different) language and think even 5 seconds will be detrimental? I can't understand that, my children have 3 languages and the most amazing part is that they switch between them effortlessly. I am not convinced that the majority of your kids are bilingual, I think they are just being introduced to a second language early. True bilingualism is being immersed in both languages equally.

Pdoubleumpkin, the situation of most people who use the OPOL approach is that they are in a relationship with someone who speaks the majority language, so they are the only person who has to give their dc their whole exposure to the minority language and convince them that there is some point in making the effort to actually speak it. It is often easier to slip into the language that everybody around you is speaking, the more you do it the more tempting it is, which is why some people decide not to it at all until their children's language skills are established.

For immersion into two languages to happen there must be enough time to be immersed. This can be difficult if you are the only person around speaking one of the languages.

Personally I did not feel the need to stick to strict OPOL because I felt I had other ways of resisting a total switch into English, but I can very well understand why some parents do feel it is the best way- and good luck to them!

It's complicated. I can understand why she would speak in native language with her child, however, she then shouldn't expect you to know that she told her child some specific, as in your example that she said she'd told the child she couldn't do something.

We have a fair number of friends that are raising their children speaking two languages, and they tend to go back and forth between the two - the children are fine with it and follow it easily. But obviously there are different schools of thought on it.

Pdoubleumpkin - it's a lot to expect a 2 year old who is at the early stages of learning any language to be able to separate them and use them appropriately. In my experience it can be quite difficult to get a toddler/young child to speak the minority language at all if they only have one parent speaking it - eg. if a 2 year old hears the majority language from dad, grandparents, neighbours, friends, on TV and at nursery, and the only person who speaks to them in the minority language is mum, then further limiting that exposure by only speaking the minority language when mum and child are at home or alone is a problem. Once a child is secure in both languages and is able to separate them then ensuring they speak the right language in the right situation is of course important too.

I just think a lot of the rigid OPOL approach assumes a sort of determinism -- that if you never ever speak to your child in the other language, they will grow up being perfectly bilingual with no accent and everything will be peachy.

But language is a life long thing. You might spend years doggedly speaking one language with your child and they will grow up to reject it anyway.

My DH for example, was raised with 3 siblings in similar circumstances. He is trilingual, one sibling is almost bilingual, the other two just speak their mother tongue.

He was never exposed to English before the age of 3, then just had a few years exposure at school, but now as an adult is perfectly fluent in it.

So while I would not question anyone else who decides to use OPOL because it's best for them, I really do reject this idea that it's the only way or that it's a guarantee of success. So I think calling the OP ignorant or intolerant is not really fair.

Dreaming - this has nothing to do with whether there are other options available to OPs acquaintance. The fact is she has chosen OPOL and probably had good reasons for it. She does not need to reconsider her approach for some woman who does not enjoy her company and doesn't really want to have anything to do with her. Several people have tried to explain why one might choose OPOL, not one of us thinks it's a good enough reason to dump a friend.

However - not liking the "friend" is a good enough reason. And I suspect it's probably mutual. Why else would this woman spend so much time talking to her toddler on a playdate? When I go to meet a friend then we mainly chat to each other in English. Only when required do I talk to my daughter (and yes - I do that in Estonian) but my daughter is meeting her friends to play with them while I natter with their mothers. If I was to hover over her at all times I may as well stay at home. So the OP and her acquaintance probably don't really enjoy meeting up and talking to each other or find it difficult to find common topics to talk about.

Well, I think it matters a little bit -- if I agreed that OPOL was the only way and it had to be done rigidly, I would have no sympathy with the OP's position. As it is, I can see why she's frustrated.

"I really do reject this idea that it's the only way or that it's a guarantee of success. So I think calling the OP ignorant or intolerant is not really fair"

it would be perfectly possible to PERSONALLY question the effectivenes of OPOL AND be tolerant of those that do think its best for them, the OP does not fall into this catagory

I think YANBU. I have many bilingual friends. Mainly we speak the common language (English). Of course the parents will speak to their child in their mother tongue at some point, but not the whole time. Have you spoken to your friend about it?

Dreaming: So if my friend was breastfeeding her baby and I was uncomfortable with breastfeeding I would be justified in asking her to not breastfeed in my presence because breastfeeding isn't the one and only way of getting nutrients into the child?

This thread is funny. Some posters accused OP of being arrogant and critical but they are doing the same.
I have heard in rl that some people compare this with 'loud parenting' and some kind of superiority and to be honest after reading some posts here i can see how it comes across like this.

I don't think that OP or other people feel that she talks to her dd about her. But i can see that it might be boring and tiring for another person to hear it (well, playdates are boring and tiring even without this issue ).

Riksti, please, that's not the same thing at all.

Isn't it? The only difference is the importance you assign to either in your head. You think one is important and the other one isn't. Others may disagree.

Actually, I have the same feeling about breastfeeding -- it's great but not the only way of doing things.

I just don't think it's a valid comparison, feeding a baby versus speaking to a toddler. Totally different spheres.

I think it is a good comparison riksti.

From the experience that has been shared on here I think it is clear that there are other ways other than opol but that often a child will be confused if their minority language parent speaks the other language.

I think what we really have to think about is who's feelings are the most important? For me the child's feelings are more important than a grown adult who doesn't like being left out.

I'm not sure how listening to another language is tiring, it sounds close to the sort of thing people would say who moan about people speaking other languages loadly and disturbing them on public transport.

"but that often a child will be confused if their minority language parent speaks the other language."

I think you mean the parent THINKS the child will be confused.

"For me the child's feelings are more important than a grown adult who doesn't like being left out."

Again, it's the parent's feelings. Not the child.

I think you mean the parent THINKS the child will be confused

It's pretty easy to tell if a child is confused, upset or embarrassed, I have seen all of these when the "wrong" language is spoken to a bilingual child who is used to a person only ever speaking one language.

How do you tell when your child is confused?

YABU. I also have one of those genuine foreign mums (WTAF are one of those anyway?!) and I am sadly not bi-lingual. When I was a young child, my mum was a SAHM and my dad worked 12hr days. My parents did begin on the OPOL route, but my mum was worried I would go to nursery speaking Greek better than I could English (because of the hours my dad worked), so she stopped.

I have found it difficult, since, to get a fluent grasp of the language, despite doing night classes and spending £100's a lot of money on distance learning/ audio courses.

This thread has been interesting. I had never heard of OPOL. I have worked in a European company for many years, where the majority of staff speak English as their second language. Their children go to the on-site nursery where English is spoken.

It's my experience that the parents speak English pretty much all the time apart from direct one-to-one conversations with their child and at home.
So, when collecting their child from nursery and getting their feedback, the parent will speak to the child in English, or if the child comes into the office and there's general conversation, it will be in English. Then, I don't know, when they leave and want to put the child's coat on, they'll go back to their mother tongue and it's sort of an unspoken signal that they are not part of the general conversation.

Yeah, just drop her ... she'll be better off without you from the sound of things.

Bonkers the scenario you describe is a bit different.

Living in the Uk and teaching Danish as the minority language is quite different to living in Denmark and teaching English as the minority language. I wouldn't necessarily adopt the same strategy for both scenarios.

Spoons I don't really understand. I am in England.

Reading back through this thread, it really does look like the problem is more that the OP and her 'friend' really don't have much in common and struggle to make conversation during playdates, rather than anything to do with the friend's choice of how to bring up a bilingual child.

It sounds like she may be talking to her child a lot to fill the silence, as the conversation with the OP isn't exactly flowing. But I seem to remember rather neglecting my DCs when we were visiting friends on playdates - they were usually as much of an excuse for me to be sociable as for the children to play together.

You'd probably feel you weren't getting much out of a playdate with a monolingual friend who spent all her time talking to her child, but in those circumstances you might find it harder to pin down what the problem was. On the other hand, if it was someone you really 'clicked' with, you'd probably have fun no matter what language barriers there were.