to want to drop a foreign friend?

[livingintheeast]

Firstly let me get one thing straight - I am not a rascist and I have a foreign mother (a genuine one not one of those that people sometimes invent just to prove how PC they are). It is a real bugbear of mine that my foreign friend will constantly talk to her lo in their mother tongue. They are both perfectly capable of speaking english - the mother talks to me/my lo in english and the lo talks to me/my lo in english. Personally I find it blooming rude and so irriatating that I'm not sure I want to be around them much at all. Even my lo has resorted to asking me (in her 2.5 year old way) what they are saying - and I don't have a clue! I know my friend wants her lo (also 2.5) to know her mother tongue but surely on a playdate, with english people etc it's just common courtesy to speak in english. AIBU?

YABU, narrow-minded and selfish. I presume that the mother is speaking in the minority language to her child. She needs to model not being embarrassed to speak that minority language even in an English speaking context if she is to have any chance of getting her child to bilingualism.

cory - I meet quite a lot of parents here in Paris who were themselves brought up bilingually, with one French and one English speaking parent. Not all of them go on to breed with either French or English speakers, so the language context can be quite complicated, but I would say that parents tend to pass on the language about which they feel most strongly. I know mothers who have made heroic efforts to speak English to their children despite this not feeling natural to them at first (because their own mother spoke French to them, usually - their English-speaking parent was their father).

I didn't think your post was that contentious, Quint. I just didn't get the idea that any language choice you make in any one moment implies an irrevocable decision not to make a different choice the next day, or indeed the next time you open your mouth. I never saw conversation with my children as some kind of lingustic Rubicon which once crossed can never be uncrossed. They sometimes choose to speak Swedish to each other and sometimes English; just because they did one thing this morning doesn't mean they can't do something different this afternoon.

Ds has gone through phases of refusing to speak the majority language (but funnily enough, never the minority language) and other phases where he has seemed more comfortable around the majority language; nothing is written in stone. The only time he has ever tried to dictate my language choice was in Yr 5 when he asked me not to speak English on the school run. I asked if he was embarrassed about my accent. -No, replied the little charmer, but if you speak English people will understand what you're saying [grrr].

But I absolutely agree with Bonsoir that you need to model not being embarrassed about your choices.

fridge it is amazing because it is very very far from being the experience of the majority of people.
A lot of children aren't ready to start learning to read until they are 6yo let alone being able and choosing to read such complex material.
You were a special case indeed.

As for children being fluent in speaking at 2.5yo... again not the majority of people's experience, even if some do.

yy to not being embarrassed.

I find the concept of it being "rude" to speak in your own language to your own children because people outside your family then won't be able to understand you quite extraordinary.

re your experience in Y6... well seen the OP it seems that it does still happen and I am guessing that it is much more the case with languages that are seen as 'lesser' languages than with french, english or german.

This has been quite informative as to how and why parents try to ensure their children are fluent in their parents languages. I've had quite a few friends who have spoken their young children in their mother tongue, don't think I ever found it rude but interesting to hear about OPOL and that dome mums and their children feel strange or uncomfortable using another language with each other than they are used to.

After reading this thread have the posters who thought the mum was being rude changed their mind at all or are now more understanding or tolerant for why they might speak as they do?

Just logged back on and it's very interesting and not unsurprising that the "that's what I do and I am right" camp are defending that they do the same as my friend. This is not about wanting to change her parenting; paranoia; ignorance of other cultures; xenophobia; or the other accusations I have heard. This is about a play date with 2 adults and 2 toddlers where 1/2 of the time is spent listening to a conversation I can neither understand nor enjoy nor participate in. As well as people like me benefiting from understanding about OPOL etc; it wouldn't hurt if those of you who practice this way also consider how it feels to be a spectator in your own home.

As I said before it's not about what I'm missing. People don't just talk to say someTHING. Most conversation is just 'stuff'. Eg my friend and her ds talk about him wanting the red car; I might then say to mum "isn't it typical they want a red car when you've only got the blue one"...that's conversation. That normal day-to-day interaction is impossible if you don't understand. Adults should spend time talking to toddlers so when you add up the adult conversation it is nowhere near the time spent including them in conversation.

I am not asking anything other than an hour or so where we can talk English.

(( wonders why op bothered to post given that she seems utterly convinced that she is right ))

Of course I totally applaud multi-linguists, hey I even wish I was one. I do not make her feel uncomfortable and wouldn't dream of asking her to change her ways. But I do feel irritated by it when theres just us four. That's me being honest.

LOL Hobbs, don't we all ;)

But surely you can talk English to your friend even though she addresses the occasional phrase to her toddler in another language?

I don't get why this should hinder your conversation with your friend or indeed with her toddler (whom you presumably get to address in English). I have spent a lot of time in multilingual setup and I just don't see why it need be all that emotional.

Maybe she spends a lot more time talking to her ds than the people you have experience of. :/. Because as someone who has many foreign friends from au pairing days I have no issue whatsoever with foreigners or foreign languages.

op I totally understand where you are coming from.

I think you have been very fair and balanced in your responses.

As I said earlier, I have been in the same situation as you. In my case my sister's children would complain and tell tales on mine. I'd only hear my child's name then "blah blah" its frustrating to have your child spoken about in-front of you, with no idea as to what is being said.

You are totally correct, it does spoil the flow of the conversation...and the general interaction between all involved in the day!

I honestly think posters are basing their opinions on guess work, to actually deal with it is quite different.

So ....YANBU

Thank you feminine. You are actually quite right about the name thing too as there is a word that sounds very similar to my sons name and to me (and him) its extra confusing.

living right.

Begonia - I think the OP just answered your question

What Bonsoir said.

Interesting this OPOL business. What abou those of you who hail from other countries and are now living and/or working here? How did you learn? My mother cam here when she was late 20s without a word of English. I mean not a single word. She's still bilingual....even now. How did that happen if the ligusitic window had been missed? Is there a different level of understanding or accent? Just genuinely curious.

Stupid iPad. Missed letters.

I lived in Italy when I was younger and had a friend who was German and Italian. She spoke Italian to her DF, which I could understand, and German to her DM, which I couldn't. She went on to marry a Dutch man, speaks 5 languages and her DC also speak 3. It WORKS doing OPOL is my point. Her DM and DF had a duty to her, not to me. FWIW, I learnt a lot of German as a result.

Can you do OPOL with three languages?