In judging my friend's spending/lifestyle?

[Shagmundfreud]

Don't want to judge but find myself doing it all the time with this friend.

Friend works 2 days a week, her DH does shifts. On the days when her DH's shifts clash with her work days, I look after her 2 year old from 7.30am to 6.15pm and her older children for an hour before school, and pick them up from after school club. I've been looking after her d/c on this random basis for about 16 months. She also uses a nursery for her 2 year old a couple of days a week (one of her work days and one of her non work days). So some months I'll proved 2 days child care, some months 4 or 5.

When we first started this arrangement she'd pay me at the end of the month, but after a few months she told me she was struggling a bit with money and asked if I could wait to be paid.I told her to pay me when she could - I trusted her. And she did pay me - six months later after she'd received a payment for missiles PPI.

Since then she's gone back to not paying me. Now owes me money dating back to July. Last week she told me she hasn't paid her rent and is 2.5k down and really struggling. She has said nothing about the money she owes me and has not apologised about the situation. I assume she won't be able to pay me any time soon, which is a problem as I was relying on the money to pay for Christmas.

I find myself judging her constantly - her spending. I notices that she buys those crappy over-priced Graze boxes, organic meat and veg, gets her hair cut and coloured once a month, has her dc in nursery one day a week when she's not working, has an iPhone 5, as does her DH, who's also recently bought her and himself an iPad. Every time I am confronted with some snippet of information about her spending I feel a surge of fury going through me. Yuck.

Her and her DH separated a few years ago and got back together after conceiving DC3. I know that she hasn't made his moving back in 'official' and is still claiming HB and council tax relief. I wish I didn't know this.

What complicates things further is knowing her DH has a serious life-limiting condition that will eventually mean he can no longer work. It also makes him very difficult to live with. He is paranoid, has OCD, communication problems. I feel very sorry for them both and struggle with also feeling angry and judgemental about friend's dishonesty and poor choices.

I wish I could cleanse my brain of my nasty judgemental thoughts but I can't.

Cahoots - I like the cut of your jib.

You are entirely right.

Really surprised by this from you op!

I agree with someone upthread that as this isn't a legitimate business transaction and as you can't legally chase for payment, she is seeing you as an optional extra. When really she should be kissing your arse because you enable her to have her lifestyle. Perhaps if you shopped her for benefit fraud she could shop you for being an unregistered childminder/ nanny not declaring income. It's all a bit of a mess really.

Perhaps just say that you cannot commit anymore because your dc has an x on whichever day it is and this x cant be changed so you're unavailable. X being a hospital appointment/ special class/ whatever you can say dc is legitimately doing.

Softkitty - even in a court of law they take the context and consequences of a crime into account.

Friend claiming HB is dishonest and wrong. It's not in the same category as someone mugging a pensioner.

"its time to sort out your own life"

My life doesn't need 'sorting out'. Apart from that bit that friend is involved in. Outside of this, my work situation is peachy (have very well paid, very part time job, close to home and only work when DH is around to care for children).

'Friend claiming HB is dishonest and wrong. It's not in the same category as someone mugging a pensioner.'

No, the mugger is more honest. Both are still robbing that pensioner of money.

But it's by the by.

She'll get caught out soon enough and that's her own lookout.

What matters is that a) she's not going to pay you. She'll use Christmas or some other excuse b) you kicking her off the gravy train.

I'm going to text her this week with the following:

"I'm sitting down going through bank statements and trying to organise my Christmas. Feel bad asking when I know you're struggling, but it would really help me to plan if I knew whether you're going to be able to pay me what you owe before Christmas - particularly as I have dc's piano fees to pay next month. will have your new ipad in exchange if you can't cough up as always fancied one but can't justify expenditure. Also if you want me to do any days more days for you in the next month I think we need to talk about how you can cover it as it's not good for you or for me to be building up debt in relation to this. will be fucking relieved if you give me brown envelope full of cash and tell me that you don't need me any more No offence taken if you've reorganised your childcare and don't need me to have dc for the foreseeable future"

grin

That's a long text.

How about: 'I am unable to provide you with any more childcare until I receive payment for what I've already provided'?

You won't see her for dust, trust me.

Problem solved.

If you are not declaring the money that your friend is paying you, I don't see how you can possibly shop her for benefit fraud.

You say you don't put it on a tax return because you don't earn enough to be taxed. That doesn't really wash with HMRC. Do you mind saying how much you are charging her for the day, btw? Apologies if you have said elsewhere.

It's also one of the big dangers of working cash in hand that if it goes a bit tits up and you are left owed money, then there's very little you can do to get it back.

She's not going to grass her for benefits fraud.

Your text sounds too apologetic, I would go with what expat said. She will just fob you off otherwise

[No, the mugger is more honest. Both are still robbing that pensioner of money]

Oh come off it.

There are millions of people claiming benefits they don't need (my mum has friends living in mansions who go on 3 cruises a year) who are claiming winter fuel payments, while poorer pensioners are struggling to buy the food they need to stay healthy because their state pensions have not kept up with rising food prices.

It may be legal, but it doesn't make it right.

In your view legal = moral, illegal = immoral. I look around me and see a lot of injustice, and selfish behaviour.

"It's also one of the big dangers of working cash in hand that if it goes a bit tits up and you are left owed money, then there's very little you can do to get it back."

No - I accept that this is true.

"You won't see her for dust, trust me."

She lives 4 doors down and we have children in the same class at school.

There will be no avoiding me. Or me her.

I agree with expat about what she says you should say in a text. Upthread you were saying you would be putting a stop to the childcare arrangement and then saying you would wait for her to make contact/ arrange new dates. BE CLINICAL SEND THE TEXT TO HER NOW or this will be dragging on forever

Right. My loins are girded.

Expat - I know you can be relied on to sort the wheat from the chaff! Are you a lawyer by chance? You tend to get to the marrow of things pretty sharpish.

Now I'm buggering off from this thread as I have a dementor outfit to make for ds!

I think your text still is framing the discussions around the money as her paying you as a favour, when in fact it is a bill. She doesn't pay her cleaner as a favour, she pays her cleaner as she's agreed that amount for the cleaning and if she doesn't the cleaner won't clean again. You ahve let her get away with months of not paying, now you are giving her another couple of months to pay.

Enough of that.

How about "[cheeky friend], I've just been going through my finances and you haven't paid me since July for the childcare, you currently owe me £X, when can you get that to me?"

Let her respond, once you know where you stand you can decide what you want to do re more childcare for her. I'd go with insisting on paying what she owes you now first (not your problem how she gets that money, her cleaner and hairdresser don't worry about how they will be paid, they just insist on the money) then in the future tell her you need payment on the day she drops the DCs off or you won't have them, that after this time of her running up big bills you'd rather it be like normal babysitting where you pay on the day.

Just wanted to add- I live in London, and I have had quotes for the following in the past year:
Cleaner- £8-10 per hour
1 day at nursery for under 2- £65 per day
Iphone contract- £25-30 per month
Credit card minimum payments- about £40 per month (and I have less than £2000 on my balance and on a 0% finance deal)
Cut and colour £40-50 per time

How much does she owe you???

Pack it up with the judgy pants everyone. Nothing wrong with a bit of cash in hand work in my book. The only problem is you have no come backs do you Sigmund, but that's the chance you take.

Just tell her Christmas is coming and you need the money, oh and in future you need paying upfront on the day of care.

Sort of swerve it round so it sounds as if you're helping her with her budget, as in you know how it can get when things mount up. Paying as you go is a very good idea!

That text is far far too nice.....you'll get nowhere fast with that! Plus it sounds apologetic, which is ridiculous considering she is the one in the wrong!
Expat has it spot on. If you want to soften it a little, then tell her the truth....you are relying on that money for Christmas and need to get it from her

Go with expat's. Please don't waffle. Be straight to the point.

Can you not turn it the other way? You know, kind of say "It's so good you've got some extra money these days (ipad, cleaner etc) so when can I expect my payment?"

Obviously said in a much more articulate way but hopefully you know what I mean!

Well, this thread is all about judgement.

You can decide there is nothing wrong with cash in hand. I think there are very few circumstances where I would object to it.

But you do it on the grounds of 'yes, I know it's illegal BUT personally I consider it to be fine. I am happy I am morally entitled, even if I know it is illegal.'

That's the same thought process that allows people to lie about their income to keep getting tax credit, or to not be honest about their living circumstances because they know they will lose out on benefit.

There really is no difference.

Btw, my phone and ipad are allowable expenses in my line of work. Just saying. Even if people want to judge, they should allow that they may not know all of the facts.

I also think that if you are working cash in hand and want to be paid regularly, then (a) don't say 'just pay me when you can.' It gives them permission not to pay regularly, and also gives the impression you don't really need that money. (b) communicate and manage the relationship. Friendship and money can easily get complicated and you simply have to have conversations before it gets to crisis point. If this friend has been told 'pay me when you can', and nothing at all has been said on the subject since July, then sending a short blunt text out of the blue may be emotionally satisfying, but it is neither friendly not pragmatic. If the OP could sort the issue of regular payment, this is still an arrangement which suits her, especially as this friend lives 4 doors down, and the OP is not declaring her earnings. She won't get that flexibility with many other part time jobs.

I am self employed, frequently work with people I know and colleagues who are also friends. You simply have to be an adult and manage things. Letting months go by without asking for money you are owed while you indulge in unfriendly speculation about their personal life and finances is just not responsible behaviour.

Okay, if she doesn't avoid you, she'll give you some excuse as to why she can't pay you.

The benefits fraud thing is a separate issue. If you don't want to shop her, don't. She'll get caught out or she won't, but it's not your problem.

What is your problem is that; a) the money she owes you won't be forthcoming b) if you're not very clear with her, she'll keep using you and guilt you into using your free services.

Sending her a long, apologetic text full of holes just gives her a shovel to losen the mortar even more.

At this point in time, it's b) that's under your control. You can't force her to pay you. If she's a good friend, she would have done so already.

So you have two choices, be firm and cut off the free childcare, possibly losing the so-called friendship, or continue to enable her to have free childcare so she can buy gadgets, get beauty treatments and pay cleaners.

Wheresmespecs - how is not declaring income that won't be taxed anyway because you are under the tax threshhold the moral equivalent of dodging tax you owe or claiming benefits you're not entitled to?