To not get why a vaginal birth is so important to some people?

[Liketochat1]

Some mothers talk of the trauma and disappointment of not giving birth vaginally. Some say they don't feel like a proper woman or that their body failed them. For many this sounds very traumatic, for others moaning.
AIBU to not 'get' why this is so important to them? I've had 2 c sections and was only intensely grateful that I live in a country and in an age where there are gifted surgeons and resources available to perform these life saving operations. In other parts of the world women are dying in childbirth as they don't have access to these.
Am I so unreasonable to think this?

I think this article is a more pertinent one regarding elcs and twin birth news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2377209.stm

Yes, we can all take our own decisions. My GP whose wife is a private midwife said when we found it was twins even more reason to keep the private midwife (rather than my fear waste of money as would be an interventionist birth) and I am very grateful to him as I had births I wanted. I was happy to take the risks I chose. That is part of the beauty of living in the UK.

One thing that does come of the thread and mirrors my own experience and has always been known is how much more difficult first births are to other births and always have been. When I was on baby 4/5 it was very different. Women who only have one baby or even just two never really get to their power and competence perhaps in terms of giving birth and so few of us have larger families but I would certainly say that later births are easier than first ones. I was delighted the twins were born vaginally as many twins are naturally.

Also we monitored them very carefully from 38 weeks ratrher than just whipping them out by C section to check they were still thriving and growing in there.

I certainly didn't get the birth experience I wanted. We had hoped for a vb for the twins and all was going well til the 34 week scan that showed we had lost one of our boys. They were delivered by cs the following day and our surviving son was on Scbu for 3weeks.
The cs didn't bother me one bit (lucky enough to be a good healer and the surgeon did a good job), but I'm devastated that it was such an awful experience and that I barely got to hold DS for the first few days. I did manage to bf- had to express and tube feed him for the first 2 weeks til he was strong enough to feed himself.
It was a far from joyful experience for us and I feel so guilty that I couldn't feel happy for DS given that we'd lost his brother. I hope to god that this time it has a happier ending, wether it be by vb or cs. Regardless of circumstance, I would not judge anyone for wanting the birth they hoped for and feeling disappointed it didn't turn out that way

Poor IW. There were some interviews about births over the years and it was amazing they found women even writing about giving birth in the 1970s were still so affected by how good or bad their birth experiences had been, it is such a major life event. Good luck for next time.

I tend rarely to regret things. It can help (although obviously not if a baby has died of course), if a birth is not quite what you wanted, just to make the best of it. It is not a lifestyle event. It will often go wrong and not doing it exactly the way you planned should not matter at all and if people can try to change their thoughts and look on the bright side they can be happier about it.

No, didn't think it would. Guess that makes me selfish for suffering BT after having a rather necessary crash section at 31 weeks.

confused that's a good link.

i meant confuddled

poor recovery from CS seems just as hard to get treated seriously as post-Vb problems.

my neighbour had a red, livid painful scar (2 years post-op) and the Gp sent her away without even any anti-bs. she'd had a scar-rupture too so in her case you'd think they'd be particularly watchful - not so.

If any of you haven't read confuddled.com's link, please do... It neatly sums up what I've been trying to get at on this thread... And also why I get so hopping mad at the "why are you bothered by how you gave birth if you had a healthy baby" comments, which was kind of the attitude of the OP, and which is wholly unacceptable, judgemental and potentially inflicting further damage to any woman who hads been through a birth trauma, whether that be by CS or VB...

db
Xx

Gosh Xenia! If ONLY you'd been around after the birth of my DD! To tell me that it wasn't a 'lifestyle event' and to look on the bright side and get on with things!

I could have avoided all those months of suicidal ideation and depression! Think of the time and money I'd have saved by not having to have had twice weekly therapy!!

Golly, if only I'd had some good advice like that, all the trauma would have gone away! Maybe I wouldn't have missed out in the joy of my daughter's first year by being in such a deep black hole I could see no other way out than to kill myself so she could have a better mother!!!

Turns out all I needed was for someone to tell me to be grateful and to pull myself together!! And a positive mindset!!!!

Wow. That's SUCH A REVELATION.

Shame you weren't around at the time, Xenia, but I shall TOTALLY bear that advice in mind when speaking to anyone suffering with birth trauma. Especially those who, as you say, have been suffering since the seventies...

So according to Xenia, we only know 'about 1% of the advantages' of a Vaginal birth over a CS.

In other words, there isn't research or evidence to support her beliefs that there are a mystery potential 99% of the advantages of a vaginal birth out there. But she believes there are. And then vaginal births will be 100% - er - of the advantages - er....

Excuse me, I'm temporarily blinded by Science'n'stuff.

My 4 vb's mean a huge amount to me. Yes it matters I had those easy, uncomplicated births.
I felt shit after my sections and after the vb's I felt great. !4 years on I still feel shit about the sections and 11 years on still feel great about having given birth vaginally without any intervention.
there are many women for whom it matters enormously how they gave birth.
it's a pile of shit to say that the birth doesn't matter.

Not to trivialise, but to me it's like the marriage v the wedding. We all know it's the marriage that is the really important thing, but if your wedding went completely differently to the one you'd planned, you'd be understandably upset. Some people want registry offices, some people want a wedding on a beach - whatever works for them. And a great marriage may compensate for a wedding disaster but it doesn't mean that you won't feel sad if things go wrong.

Sometimes I miss a "like" button!

I genuinely don't think people who don't get birth trauma either from never having experienced it or just not having the required amount of empathy, never will without experiencing it.

I lost a baby at 20 weeks, she was born the day before and died in my arms. When I got pregnant again I said "When I see her born I'll believe I'm pregnant" I could't connect to the pregnancy because for me being pregnant didn't mean a baby at the end. Hiccups meant nothing to me, being in hospital for 4 weeks and listening to her every 4 hours did nothing, having weekly to three a week scans did nothing.

I went into labour at 31 weeks, they put me on the drip to stop the contractions and they gave me steroids. They sent the hospital director to treat me! He gave me an hour to respond or I'd have a section. An hour later he came in, did a VE and calmly said "We need this baby out" (I didn't know at the time but he'd found a foot). The room swarmed with people, I went through 3 consent forms at the SAME TIME! I had my drip stopped, nail varnish removed, jewellery removed, clothes changed and was in theatre in 15 minutes. I did not have enough time to understand what was happening to me. They took me into theatre, away from my partner and mum so I was alone with lots of people talking at me, totally scared I was losing another baby and no one to even hold my hand.

I woke up 45 minutes later (I reacted badly to the GA and things hadn't gone well in theatre with the baby either) with Mum sat on my bed telling me about my little girl. I was so messed up I couldn't understand why Mum was in my bedroom telling me I was having a girl, I knew that! When she started saying she had blonde hair, blue eyes and was breathing for herself I started to remember what had happened. It took 5 hours (longer than my first baby had been alive) to get to her, they kept telling me she was being settled in, she was having xrays, I couldn't see her until I'd eaten some toast (after having a GA - ouch!) and had a wash... I got a quick push past at midnight before being taken to the ward. She was washed, dressed, wearing a nappy, covered in wires and massive! To me this was NOT my baby! I told you, I'm not going to believe I'm having a baby until I see her born and then you stop my contractions and tell me this random baby is mine??? It's quite obvious she's dead and you're passing this one off as mine!

I remember reading a post on here when she was a baby (I joined when she was about 7 months and it was awhile after that) someone saying they felt like a babysitter. I couldn't believe it! That's how I felt! I spent the first 2.5 years learning to accept someone else's baby, totally terrified that I'd hurt her (accidentally of course) and she wasn't even mine. I had vivid videos played out in my head of accidents that were my fault. I couldn't walk down the stairs that led from the shops to my house, I had to walk the long way around because I was convinced I'd drop her down them. One day when she was 15 months old we were on a glass bottom cat on holiday and my partner and mum got a little worried about me. I was sat with my arms crossed over her like a seat belt and apparently looking white. I couldn't tell them why until we got off, I'd never told anyone about these thoughts before but when we got off I told Mum, she didn't judge she just told me I needed to tell my doctor because she'd felt the same with my sister (she had had puerperal psychosis).

I didn't ever get over it until my next baby was born, somehow I went under scared and came out calm. When I got pregnant again I knew I could not face another GA and went for a VBAC. There were some issues with the birth, mostly panicky staff who wouldn't leave me alone, but I tell you this, I still remember how hard BOTH sections were, but the VB I remember differently, I don't care (as part of my birth experience at least) about the issues last time, I remember how great it felt to hold my baby, to know I'd done it, to be able to walk afterwards (sections are bad for PGP!) to be the first person to touch my baby, to not see her after everyone else had, to not wait hours before being allowed to see my baby. I even preferred the birth of my angel-baby to the sections, that was part of why I needed a VBAC, I couldn't have that being my best birth.

I don't care how selfish you think I am to suffer from PTSD, you really couldn't make me feel any worse than I ever did. I can't feel badly for you, I feel happy for you, actually. I feel happy that you have never suffered from it. I feel happy that your feelings towards me and those who like me have suffered from PTSD come from an innocence that should not be taken from you, just like they should never have been taken from me and the others. Remember that next time you hear someone was traumatised by their birth. You are fortunate to never know that feeling. And if you really can't do that, read the link and read it again and every time you meet someone who says they have PTSD, read the link again until you can at least be grateful not to know what this feels like.

I loved my c-section. I was labouring fine and actively at home and in a weird way enjoying it (excitement at the baby arriving) when I got to hospital I was 6cm dilated and doing fine but when they examined me ds was in a very weird breach position and had to come out by c-section. I have amazing happy memories of seeing him for the first time as he was lifted up and then of wonderful cuddles with him while I was stitched up. However, I do understand that it might feel a little different if the emcs was more 'traumatic' and for instance was done under a general or where they had to be apart from the baby afterwards (but that could happen following a natural birth too).

I struggle though to understand that polarisation of about natural birth vs caesarean. After struggling to conceive and helping a friend (or trying to) through the indescribable pain of losing a child during (natural) childbirth, to me whichever method is safest in the particular circumstances is the 'best' one, as the 'goal' is a healthy baby and mother. Schmee sort of sums it up well I guess. I think there is a tendency overemphasise the birth above the child, and that focus is adding to some women's distress if things don't go the way they 'should'.

sorry confuddled x-post, I hope my post doesn't look insensitive following yours, I am so sorry for the loss of your baby and for all the pain you must have gone through.

Confuddled.com - that's more than anyone should have to go through .

But yes, I suppose if someone hasn't been through it, and lacks empathy, then I guess it is hard to 'get'. And this:

I feel happy that you have never suffered from it. I feel happy that your feelings towards me and those who like me have suffered from PTSD come from an innocence that should not be taken from you, just like they should never have been taken from me and the others. Remember that next time you hear someone was traumatised by their birth. You are fortunate to never know that feeling. And if you really can't do that, read the link and read it again and every time you meet someone who says they have PTSD, read the link again until you can at least be grateful not to know what this feels like.

YES.

OP read this ^^ And try a little harder.

I still find it hard to control my emotions if talking about my first DDs birth. I think its something which will always be there. And sometimes I have a little cry at the time lost that I'll never get back. My PND and PTSD robbed me of my DD1s first year. She's five next week.

No tired it's about our own personal experiences, not each others.

It's like Schmee said. I doubt many people would have loved my wedding as their own, I had a few hiccups on the day but I loved it. Some people might find the issues I dealt with major and felt they ruined the day, it might mean they can't even look at pictures without remembering what went wrong but for me they were nothing. On the other hand my hair did upset me, I felt daft because I had a tuft sticking out from above each ear (and I have bum length hair!) and all day I was self concious about it, someone else might not even notice. It's the same with birth, what upsets one person won't upset another. I'm sure if I hadn't lost a baby less than a year before and if the section had been later on and not a crash, I'd have accepted it far easier.

It's also not about it going like it "should" it's how your brain computes the issues surrounding the birth. The biggest factor is feeling out of control or like the life of you or someone you love is at risk - so quite easy to see where mine came from.

Another way to look at it is the amount of soliders who develop PTSD (the same condition!) some of them will walk away from it and it doesn't bother them, others won't be able to leave it behind. Does that mean one is selfish and ungrateful for being alive? No, just that their brain computed it differently.

Thank you designerbaby. I feel the same way about the 2.5 years it took me to "get over it" although by then this amazing little girl who demands to be loved, in the politest possible way, had already come through and won me over, even if she wasn't mine.

I was diagnosed with PND and didn't get it because my symptoms weren't really PND. Someone posted on a Facebook group saying they were from some uni and doing a study would we mind answering a questionnaire. I was sobbing all the way through it! At the end it says "If you've been effected by this questionnaire, please click this link" which I did and it took you to the BTA and I read that whole website in one sitting! Next time I saw my nurse therapist I told him and he said "Yes, I think you're right"!

I tend rarely to regret things. It can help (although obviously not if a baby has died of course), if a birth is not quite what you wanted, just to make the best of it. It is not a lifestyle event. It will often go wrong and not doing it exactly the way you planned should not matter at all and if people can try to change their thoughts and look on the bright side they can be happier about it.

Possibly one of the most trite things I have ever read about traumatic birth, well done!!

Wow I missed that post! Obviously someone who needs to read that link and the comments carefully!

I do NOT regret anything about my first section, they saved my baby's life, they got her to the NNU as quickly as possible and did everything they could for her. They were amazing in our stay there, a strong emphasis on helping the mums who wanted to breastfeed do so, they encourage bonding etc. I couldn't ask for anything different. Except for my brain to reconcile the missing 45 minutes of my life.

I stand b y my comment. If you go into birth thinking you are buying a new consumable and it does not turn out as you want and then you regret it that is not a route to happiness. If you can change your thoughts which is basically what most therapy seeks to achieve then you feel better. I don't see what is wrong with that comment.

I have said the aim is a live birth and don't worry about the type. On the other hand medically we are learning more and more about all sorts. My family (mostly doctors) would say we know much less than we do know. We are finding out more and more particularly in relation to DNA, quality of breastmilk, birth etc diet and what we have tended to find is that there are advantages IF you can manage it in the natural route. So if you have a choice and think ah C section is easy and I can choose the day I will pick that I am just saying think again. I think there is a myth perpetuated in women's magazines and the like that C section is some wonderful lifestyle choice and I am worried about that trend. However I would never of course suggest someone who needs a C section should not have one. Childbirth kills many women all over this planet and we are lucky to have C sections.

Did you read confuddled.com's link Xenia?

I did NOT go into childbirth thinking I "was buying a new consumable". That is deeply offensive and goes to highlight either you ignorance of complete lack of empathy.

The kind of things that happened to me, and what happened to confuddled.com bear no relation to being unable to buy the right kind of fridge. I have never been traumatised in the way I was following DD1's birth while in Currys, I assure you.

And, as a matter of fact, I was one of those people who 'got on with things' when difficulties in my life arose. In fact I was an 'A' grade 'coper' up to that point, and life hadn't always been a walk in the park.

I hope you never have to come across a circumstance in your life where your 'positive mindset' and ability to 'get on with things' is no longer sufficient. I truly do. However I do fear that you will never be able to understand unless you do.

db
xx

I went into the birth with them trying to stop it then them changing to a GA in such a quick succession that my brain didn't have time to compute it. I was shown a baby 5 hours later who looked too big to be mine (4lb 2oz at 31 weeks) was clean, dressed and wired up in an incubator. I didn't think my baby was dead because I didn't get my consumable, I thought she was dead because my brain couldn't make sense of the events.

Please, tell me, why do service men and women get PTSD? Do they go into war thinking they're buying a consumables that doesn't turn out like they exected? How about a car crash victim who gets it or anyone else who gets it?

Let me make this clear, I am grateful they saved my daughter's life, I'm grateful they didn't try to stick a needle into my spine because we're now aware that my spine couldn't take it, I'm grateful that my premature baby has grown up strong and well. There is not one part of the birth I am not grateful for or think they did the wrong thing on. I still suffered from PTSD and at no time did my therapist try to change how I thought about the birth.

unfortunately xenia your confusing gratitude for outcome with process
its possible to be grateful for out come eg livebirth.but be traumatised by process that facilitated the live birth.Loss of control is pivotal and significant. birth trauma is imo hugely underestimated,and misunderstood.as people reduce it to a well youve got a live baby havent you?overlooking the impact that process had on the mum

I am not saying there is no trauma. I am being misconstrued here. I am very sympathetic to people's birth traumas. I said above they can remember it for life, even if we interview women about births in the 1970s. I know quite a bit about mental health.

I was just saying if you are just a bit fed up that you didn't get the quick pain free birth of your friend don't worry about it and think about the good things.

Obviously if you're really hurt by it get some therapy and try to think of other ways to feel better about it all.

I am certainly not in any sense not appreciating how parents feel when a baby died. My own sister died as a baby. My mother remembered that always right until her own death.

My more general point was that I don't want teenagers to think C section is the safest best way to give birth as it isn't on the whole.