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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

574 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 16/09/2012 23:33

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

OP posts:
LadyBeagleEyes · 17/09/2012 12:18

I'll say what I said on the other feminist thread from yesterday.
I am a feminist, I'm just not a mumsnet feminist.
I don't ever go on the FWR boards, but there have been a few on chat/AIBU in the last few days, and I'm happy to see that there are many like minded feminists around.
We just stay away from FWR, as it's too fucking scary and we don't want a flaming.

wordfactory · 17/09/2012 12:20

So what if some people are aggressive? What harm can they do you?
Just ignore if you don't like it. Or challenge them.

People don't whole sale stop believing in things becasue there are a few fringe gobshites.

Far bettee to stand up and say I am a feminist so that you can counter the gobshites (of ehich there are actually few).

BegoniaBampot · 17/09/2012 12:21

TBH, Mn is the only place I've really seen feminism properly talked about, so there are probably others who also really looked at it for the first time on this forum - maybe that makes us all bit thick and vacant. But for those of us who did look at the FWR board out of interest or to learn more - it didn't always make a good impression and backs the reputation it seems to have among the general public.

Original poster
EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 17/09/2012 12:22

When I first went on FWR I was a bit scared because of so many posters talking about flamings. I knew very very little about feminism. And yet I always found the women there welcoming and friendly. It is true there are hot topics in feminism that some get passionate about - FWR equivalents of parent and children parking spaces! But even then the only flamings I have seen are between feminists who know each other and frequently disagree - although occasionally sadly newer women can get caught in the crossfire.

Although if you go on and start a thread saying - I think all feminists are hairy, loud lesbians, then you will get flamed. Not that there is anything wrong with hairy, loud lesbians.

OP posts:
sashh · 17/09/2012 12:22

My grandmother was born at the end of the 19th century and she was a strong woman- she didn't put up with any of the rubbish that people think all women put up with at that time.

So did she vote? Own any property? Or even have a decent education.

It doesn't matter to me whether I have an opportunity to become a CEO, because I don't want to be one.

Doesn't it matter to you that even if you wanted to you would probably not get to be one? Or that other women are prevented from becoming a CEO?

I don't want to be a doctor, but if medical schools went back to only allowing 1/3 of entrants to be female I'd be hopping mad.

Someone mentioned being a SAHM through choice - that is the important bit - choice. There is nothing wrong with being a SAHM or SAHD as long as you choose that.

Not so long ago many companies did not emply married women, or some did but did not emply women with children.

This is in my working life.

OwlLady · 17/09/2012 12:22

It's very difficult to ignore someone calling you pathetic for loving someone, in my case another young woman. Sorry it really pissed me off and apparently I am letting women down because I could have become a brain surgeon. I have no idea how as I only got a double B in GCSE science

wordfactory · 17/09/2012 12:22

lady you are on the money.

If we all stand up for what we believe in by a. identifying as feminists and not allowing the sexists and the gobshites to sully the movement and b. quietly pursuing equality...then the world will be a much better place IMVHO

WorraLiberty · 17/09/2012 12:23

So what if some people are aggressive? What harm can they do you?

Me personally - no harm at all.

Feminism - a fair bit of harm judging by the amount of people who won't call themselves feminists due to the aggressive, hard line extremists.

Shit sticks and people don't always want to be associated with aggressive bull headed people no matter what the cause.

LadyBeagleEyes · 17/09/2012 12:23

Nah, I can't be arsed arguing wordfactory, especially as all the other others swoop in. I stay away from aggressive gobshites.Grin
This thread is fine because of the lack of them.

florencejon · 17/09/2012 12:23

To be perfectly blunt: No, I do not want to be associated with the type of feminist who posts in the feminist sections here on mumsnet. I find them paranoid, dogmatic, controlling, professionally offended, unrealistic and unhappy.

Now, some of you keep telling me that all feminists are not like this and I'm sure you are right. I think I've found them though and they are the type of people who identify with equality rather than feminism.

Feminists - you have only yourselves to blame for alienating so many women.

wordfactory · 17/09/2012 12:24

But owl you can't get so defensive.

You can't abandon a whole fabulous movement because one person on t'internet pissed you off. You can see that that would be an over reaction right?

Like quitting alcohol cos you once had a hangover Wink.

BegoniaBampot · 17/09/2012 12:24

Wordfactory - people do challenge them but I have seen them close down threads and drive posters away with their attitude and mobbing tactics. It's hard to have a conversation with someone who is shutting their eyes, fingers in ears and going la, la, la, la, la. It becomes pointless.

handbagCrab · 17/09/2012 12:25

But why? Why are your choices limited? I've chosen to work part time since having my child because it was made clear to me I'm not seen as a promotable person at work because I had a baby.

My choice was limited because I had a baby and I took mat leave. I've not become a dimwitted sluggard (well, no more than usual) purely because I had a child and I may bear more and want a bit more time off.

Perhaps if work was structured differently, to be more compatible with family responsibilities then we could have proper choices. We may then choose to carry on as we are anyway but at least the option was there to be 50% CEO, 50% parent.

florencejon · 17/09/2012 12:25

Ah Worra, we cross posted! You got down what I was putting down much quicker.

OwlLady · 17/09/2012 12:29

I shouldn't be so defensive, it just hurt my feelings and I don't why a feminist would take such pleasure in ripping another woman to pieces anyway. Maybe I should just avoid that particular poster anyway, poles apart

mayorquimby · 17/09/2012 12:30

I think Worra has it nailed tbf.
I think broadly most right minded people agree with the central principals of feminism. However when there is disagreement on aspects of it, if someone is told that they only disagree because they've been conditioned or they don't understand then it's highly condescending and very ikely to make them disengage with the conversation because frankly what's the point in debating an issue if every point you agree on is because you're both right but when you disagree it's because the other person is right and you just don't know better or aren't enlightened enough to understand why you're wrong.

WorraLiberty · 17/09/2012 12:31

florence I agree with everything you've said apart from this bit...

"Feminists - you have only yourselves to blame for alienating so many women"

I would say it's the 'extremists' that only have themselves to blame.

As you can see from this thread, there are many decent non preachy, non bullying feminists who are quite capable of having a debate.

The thing is, many of them have said they wouldn't ever call themselves feminists because of the extremists who spoil the whole barrel of apples.

Perhaps we'll start a secret underground army of feminists who operate from a bunker somewhere underneath Parliment Grin

wordfactory · 17/09/2012 12:32

Ah but worra, I htink those bull headed people are given a disproportionate amount of attention and air time.

Which makes me question why that would be...in who's interest would it be to portray and entire movement like that?

Oh yeah, that would be the sexists.

The way that I see it, there are loads of perfectly normal women who are feminists. Around the world they are just quietly working for equality...

OwlLady · 17/09/2012 12:33

yes, that's the word, condescending. I could have been a brain surgeon, nevermind that my degree was in textiles

panicnotanymore · 17/09/2012 12:33

I believe in equality, but am wary of the label 'feminist', because I have seen it attached to extremists who seems to be arguing for positive discrimination for women. For example if someone has just had a year out (maternity leave, sabbatical, whatever.... and I'm talking about women and men here) they should not come back at the same pay and promotion prospects as a colleague who has worked for that period. The extra year that person has worked for gives them more experience and makes them more valuable to the employer. I have seen people argue that this is discrimination...

I would argue for equal rights, but I would not call myself a feminist.

wordfactory · 17/09/2012 12:34

Sorry crossed with you.

Yes, I think one of the things sexists have managed to do, is get feminists to refuse to self identify. They've won that game for sure.

Which is why I say we stand up and be proud. If there are loads of us, going about our feminist business in our make up, we'll change everyone's viewpoint. The gobshites will be seen for what they are - a daft minority.

mayorquimby · 17/09/2012 12:34

"Ah but worra, I htink those bull headed people are given a disproportionate amount of attention and air time."

it's the same with all groups in that respect, be it muslims, christians etc.
Most people are rationa and normal people but that doesn't grab headlines, air time or attention. We all remember the lunatic fringe though.

enimmead · 17/09/2012 12:35

I've posted on FWR and it can get very vicious and personal with a lot of heated debates and several deleted posts. There are some people on FWR with very fixed views and no debating will ever get them to change their views.

Some posters have obviously had a really awful time with men in the past and you can see how this is reflected in their posts. The thread on male childminders and males working with young children was one such thread and you could just see the distrust of men by some people. Anyone who dared to disagree got pounced upon.

Which is a shame because feminism has achieved so much in the past. More than many people realise. You've only got to go back 30 years to see how things were so different. It is still a world of gender expectations - mums work part time and bring up children, dads go out to work. There's nothing wrong with that - but it should not be the expectation. Where's the expectation that both parents can adapt their working lives? That either parent can work part time - why should it be the expectation that men have the full time career?

There's also the way women are perceived in this country. Look at the adverts on TV. Look at the way women's bodies are used to sell stuff in a way that men's bodies aren't.

Kayano · 17/09/2012 12:36

Word - you are missing that a whole
Load of people are telling you what they have seen with their own eyes on MN

I'm still getting over the 'if you shave your armpits you have no morals thread'

It's not sexists portraying it that way, honestly that is they way it comes across to us ordinary women on these ordinary boards.

If you can't acknowledge what us women are saying (and it's just as valid as your opinion) then the discussion becomes redundant

LadyBeagleEyes · 17/09/2012 12:37

I agree mayorquimby.
Especially the argument about being 'conditioned' whenever you try to defend your POV.
You can't win.