To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

What's wrong with fanny? Unless you're American, fanny is a perfectly good female equivalent to willy.

Feminism: it's really simple. "The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of equality of the sexes." Source: Oxford English Dictionary.

That is all it is - no more, no less.

There are clearly scores on this thread who subscribe to that yet are reluctant to call themselves feminists.

Why? Is it because one or two feminists on FWR are bolshy, have spent inordinate amounts of time studying gender politics, working themselves into a lather at women's groups and keen to display intellectual arrogance of the patronising kind?

I got that reaction once from one poster who told me I didn't "understand" feminism, despite the fact that I had been a feminist since I was a little girl in the late 1940s (yes, I'm that old), and come from a family with a feminist and suffragette background.

I laughed - what it didn't do is make me reject feminism or the term.

It is letting down all those wonderful women who fought for equality of opportunity, the vote and against discrimination to turn away.

I doubt there are many (any?) on this thread who would like to go back to the days of women as property, with no prospects, no choices in life and complete dependence on their partners - which is what there was before feminism.

Please don't reject the term just because of a minority exponents of gender paranoia.

That's like rejecting the English flag because some arse-hole extremists have tried to hijack it.

Why let a minority dictate to the majority?

i do not understand it either :( Maybe some fear looking like a man hater because it is well known we all are and have hairy legs

i am a feminist and very proud to be who wants to be treated as an equal; in our society although we are getting there we still have a long way to go. we need equal representation in law, law making, politics, science, policing, in senior management and in so many other areas. i want to be judged for what i do as a person not judged for what i do being a women. i want all women to have total control over their bodies and to make their own decisions on what is best for them this is fundamentally what feminism is about and if you do not support that then what it is you want for women, your sisters, mother, aunts, friends and your daughters. i do recognise that I am different to a man and that we have different needs. I also happen to love make up, love pretty and fitted clothes, i wear high heels , paint my nails and toes, spend time preening myself and I still manage to have my own opinions that sometimes differ from many other feminists

It is very sad that so many women shy away from supporting feminism because if it were not for the feminist movement women would have a lot less rights now and what you will have and your daughters will have in the future, the women around the world who have very little rights their lives will never change and neither will their daughters

Good post from goodpharisee. My thoughts too, but I couldn't put them as well :)

I thoiught Caitlin Moran made a good point about abortion. She said if normal sensible women admit to having them and supporting them, they will continue to be available.

If women don't, then certain sections of society will assume they're not needed. And before we know where we are, they won't be.

I feel the same about feminism. If a normal sensible woman identifies as a feminist then women's rights will continue to be on the agenda. But if those rights are only ever seen to be the remit of the hairy armpit section, then women's rights will be seen as a marginal thing. And soon marginalised.

What if I don't want to be equal to a man? What if I don't think the sexes are equal, but that they are different and one shouldn't be compared to.the other?

That phrase equality of the sexes what does it mean in reality?

It means equality of opportunity. That one sex has no less opportunities than another.

If you don't want to take your opportunities then that's fine. I always find it odd that some women seem to imagien feminists marching them off to get a degree at knife point.

I Think that's daft, abortion is a medical procedure and each one is documented. Evidence is there to show how many terminations are performed each year. Women do not need to admit to having them if they don't want too.

nailak Mon 17-Sep-12 17:00:38
What if I don't want to be equal to a man?

You want to be paid less? Paid more is a fine aspiration...
You don't want to choose who you have sex with and when?
You don't want to have the vote?
You don't want to own property?

Which of these things could you reasonably oppose?
All of the above can be said to be feministy things... I'd rather say they were equality things, but I'd have to say feminism had a lot to do with things like ERA and so on.

but for many women they do not admit to having a termination becuase they are judged or they feel they will be. when i say i feel no guilt i am judged by some, that is the point she is making the more women come forward and support others who have had a termination the less others will judge, the more acceptable it will be not a dirty secret we have to keep and hopefully stop making women feel guilty many feel guilty for not feeling guilty.

of course some people will always judge because that is the way they are and some will always think termination is wrong for them

Equality of opportunity? So men have equality to get pregnant and give birth and breast feed?

I agree with examples and that women should have same educational opportunities etc.

I just think the reality is men and women are different, brains are wired differently etc.

To have equal ops I dont want to have to act like a man, behave like one,

I am not explaining well so I'll come back later

"Because I still don't get why any woman would reject feminism"

The majority of people aren't rejecting feminism, just the label. Big difference.

'To have equal ops I dont want to have to act like a man, behave like one'

I don't think there are many feminists that want to behave and act like the stereotype man, but to be valued equally for their contributions to society, and have equal access and control over how society is organised.

I think it's a shame if people who hold feminist views are afraid to identify because of the bad press that it has been given by the media. There are dozens of regulars on FWR and only one who thinks that SAHMs are a disgrace to feminism. She regularly gets flamed by the other feminist posters and I really wouldn't say that poster was representative at all.

I've learnt so much from FWR. It's a supportive environment if you're open and trying to engage. Yes fems get a bit tetchy but that's understandable considering the number of trolls who come in to stir things up.

Feminists have always been given a bad press by the media. That is not going to change. Because feminists challenge the status quo and that is never liked.

freudian that's not what word said though, she said that Caitlin Moran said they would stop being available, which isn't the case.

Women feeling judged due to termination is a different thing and I agree with what you say.

nailak no one is asking you to be the same as a man. Any more than they are asking you to be the same as a dog. Or a gold fish.

But being equal does not mean the same.

A deaf person cannot be the same as me, becasue ya know, I can hear and they can't. But they can be equal to me. They can be given equal opportunities to me.

Don't have to take 'em, if they don't want 'em.

Moomin every bloody parliamnet someone puts up a bill to reduce the legal limits. And they nearly always argue that abortion as it currently stands isn't necessary.

Also I think that it's ok to not take on all the opportunities feminism has resulted in if you don't want them, as long as you don't believe they should be denied to other women who do want them.

Or to think that because you fit into your gender stereotype then all women do too. For example I would say I'm crap at leadership but I recognise that loads of other women I know are great at it. I would say that I found motherhood came naturally to me but that doesn't mean that it does or should to all women.

Basically we're people first before our gender.

messy yes indeed.

I find it quite funny that people think feminists want to be like men. That we train ourselves to leave toilet seats up and fiddle with change in our pockets...

But I think there are some women who want to be SAHMs and get it into their heads that feminists want to deny them this. That Andrew Dworkin will be round to their's clutching the recruitment pages of the Telegraph.

They conveniently forget that it was feminism that pushed for child benefit for all women, and feminists who pushed for years spent as SAHM to count in divoorce proceedings .

I don't call myself a feminist for 2 reasons.
1 I believe that all people are equal. I believe this is so obvious that it is insulting that I should have to be classified because I think women are equal members of society. I also believe black people, homosexuals etc etc are equal, but there is no name for this? Being labelled as being part of a group because I expect to be treated equally is ludicrous, and it allows other people to dismiss us because they can tar women seeking or expecting equality as feminists. Which leads to my next point

2 The bad name given to 'feminists' by the radical element. I don't like the radical feminists who take the view that women should stand up to a patriarchal society but only in the way dictated by them. They fail to see the irony of women winning their freedom and independence from men only to be expected to sacrifice it at the alter of the 'greater good' as decided by the radical feminists.

That Andrew Dworkin will be round to their's clutching the recruitment pages of the Telegraph

Andrea Dworkin is dead.

Empusa Mon 17-Sep-12 17:22:55
"Because I still don't get why any woman would reject feminism"

The majority of people aren't rejecting feminism, just the label. Big difference.

Exactly.

but it is those who are anti feminist movement that have made out that the word feminist is a dirty word no one else

we accept that in religion that there are a few that have more radical views but they do not represent all those following that religion

God, radical feminists really take a bashing here. I suspect that radical is mixed up with extremist but they're really not the same thing. A few extremists don't begin to make up the vast numbers of feminists that are out there.

I believe in women starting and living their lives on a level playing field. I recognise that there are other groups who don't. By and large, the group known as 'men' have an easier time. I recognise that within the group known as 'women' that some will have an easier time than others but no other group is penalised simply for their gender. Racism, homophobia, ageism affect both men and women. Fixing racism, if that's possible, doesn't fix the inequality that affects women. I therefore choose to concentrate on women, I am one, I can see and understand the inequality, I can do something about it. Just because I identify as a feminist doesn't mean I don't care about other inequalities but feminism is something I focus on more.