To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

There's loads of things we are socially conditioned to do. Pointing them out isn't a crime. Understanding that's the main reason why we do some stuff isn't the end of the world.

Agree handbag. Why do I drink diet coke? I know ultimately it is about advertising when I was a teenager. But I still like it, so I drink it. Even though I know it is because of social conditioning

Handbag - it isn't just being pointed out though. It's a lot of the time rather rudely brought up in a 'haha poor dearies think they have free choice lets educate their little minds'

When we already know about it.

Not confusing the issue at all.

Des O'Connor fathering a baby at god only know what age - general consensus, bit of mild disgust and but no real condemnation

Fifty year old women having IVF - general response - outright condemnation

BBC sacking women presenters for age. Not so many men.......

Women expected to dye their grey hair. Not so many men.........

Cosmetic surgery - what do you know ? Once again aimed mostly at women.

Prince Charles marrying young virginal Diana...........what the actual hell was that about and why was it accepted

agree with handbag

I can see that would be annoying goldship. But honestly in FWR some posters argue against the idea that there is any social conditioning at all. So actually no, not everyone here does think that

Blistory Mon 17-Sep-12 16:14:31
Prince Charles marrying young virginal Diana...........what the actual hell was that about and why was it accepted

That one I know!

That was all a stitch up between the Bowes-Lyons [the sainted Queen Mum] and the Spencers to get "one of theirs" into the Royals.

goldship i think some people get exasperated, that people will deny choices are made as a result of social conditioning etc etc and they are adamant it is totally free choice

Like EBL and her diet coke...i shave legs/armpits, wear makeup etc...I choose to do it because i like the way it looks...but I also know that it is social conditioning that makes me think like that

it is ridiculous to suggest peoples choices are not influenced by social conditioning

Thanks for the clarification.

Am much too young to remember but seriously, was there not concern about the age difference and the fact that her virginity was mentioned, even during the commentary on the wedding itself ?!? It wasn't THAT long ago

I remember it. No I dont remember any concern expressed about the age gap and the fact her virginity was mentioned .....except from some extreme feminists

You can enjoy something and still be critical of it.

You can enjoy getting rid of your body hair and still be critical of the messages of the social attitude that says there is something wrong with women who don't.

You can enjoy make-up, pretty shoes, and colouring your hair and be critical of a media industry where women's beauty is so rigidly defined to practically impossible standards.

It's a complex world, mostly shades of gray. The current 'mainstream' feminism problem has a lot of issues of dealing with other inter-sectional equality movements within it (there are a lot of issues of white feminists talking over non-white womens experiences as women, the complex bomb of trans issues within it, women with disabilities, women outside of the West...). Single issue groups tend to not work these days as they tend to end up standing upon other marginalization groups. It needs to fold into the other equality fighting groups, but modern mainstream feminist groups tend to have the greatest problem doing this, in my experience.

Mrdob - in the topics I have seen people have readily said they are aware of social conditioning and how it effects them, but how they can also make choices too.

They were shot down. Because it didn't conform with what the regime of the topic was.

It is ridiculous, I agree. men women young and old are effected by social conditioning.

But we still have those choices. What about those who made these choices long before it was fashionable, they can't be accused of doing so because of social conditioning. So there will obviously be people who make these choices because they genuinly prefer them rather that it just being a side effect of whatever is fashionable or expected of one at that time.

If posters are patronising you can tell them, or ignore them or argue their point with them or whatever! You don't have to take it to heart and drag it up every time someone mentions the f-word. I've read some right shite on here, I choose to forget it for the good of my blood pressure :)

One thing I do do because of social conditioning, which I hate and I know I should get a grip and stop doing it, is wearing high heels. I love the heels, I love buying them I love looking at them, but wearing them? I'm like a newborn foal.

Handbag - I know I can do that, and I do. But this topic was about why people don't want to be feminists and I've explained why :)

The ting is though when does social conditioning end? In that thread a woman said she shaved as she worked in boiler suits all day in a male dominated heavy industry and it felt better to her. She was asked if her male colleagues felt the need to do the same.

That question is totally pointless in that context as 1) no one would know anyway
2) was she supposed to take a straw pole of the men before deciding something for herself?

The though that women have only one 'choice' as the other option isn't a 'choice' at all is bloody depressing

I would hazard a guess that in the world of hairy fanjos:

Some people leave it to be free
Some people lop it all off
But probably the majority of people just keep it neat.
So where do try fall in the scale of social conditioning?

So is the problem then not with feminism itself but with the way in which some feminists express their views ?

Or is it simply frustration that we seem to post with only a feminist perspective ? Because I still don't get why any woman would reject feminism

I am a feminist but probably wouldn't have identified as one 10 years ago. I like Caitlin Moran's definition and the question 'are the boys doing it?'

On the social conditioning aspect, I do think that it is the smaller issues in society that create a culture of inequality. Why do little girls not get taught a word for their genitals?

It may seem like a nonsense to think it has any effect on how girls or women view themselves and their bodies but it does. Why are vulvas not just vulvas? The question comes up time and time again on mn and I'm always surprised by the number of people who think vulva or vagina are shocking words to hear a 3 year old say whereas twinkle or front bottom are fine.

No don't get me wrong I have no objection to feminism. If its going to help women get a greater deal in life then I'm all for it. Personally I don't feel restricted in anyway shape or form because of my gender (except the god damn high heels) but I understand that some people are.

And yes, some posters seem to think feminism is THEM. I'd like to have a conversion with them as a person without some feminist issue cropping up. I do also understand that when someone is passionate about something that it does tend to take over their lives (like me with midwifery) but I'd still like to see the person, not just the feminist.

Agree are the boys doing it is a great question. Another one I ask myself is - would you have talked to a man like that/done that to a man?

Jolly jelly - ive never heard a little boy call it his 'penis' though. So doesn't that go for both sexes or...?

Blistory Pretty much. The value and concept of feminism (equality regardless of sex, gender, or gender expression) are not a problem, but the way some women express and the mainstream modern feminism movement express themselves can be a huge problem. It's become less about finding the route to lift everyone to the same playing field and more of a blame game that is mostly pointed at other women and ignoring the perspective of groups if they don't conform to the mainstream woman (white, slim, able-bodied...). Which is more doing the work of patriarchy than fighting against it.

Gold No because they have a willy (or equivalent) but know the proper name is penis. There seems to be an 'ick' factor in female genital names. There isn't a 'willy' for girls. If that makes sense!

Also some terms like 'front bottom' imply the vulva is dirty.

In the north east there are willies and Fannys

There's plenty of names for girls bits