To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

That would be because men have to do them too goldship

When the media publishes pictures of women unshaven and doesn't comment on their hairiness, when a woman can raise an arm exposing an unshaved pit without gasps of horror, then I'll believe that it's a free choice.

God, I hate being patronised.
IMO it looks better.
IMO I don't like men with beards either, or hairy backs.
I like smooth skin.
It's not an intellectual debate, it's a preference.

Shave or don't shave. Until its a genderless and value free decision such as 'red or white?' it is going to be a feminist issue I would have thought.

Eatbrains - the removal of hair happened much longer ago than that though. I won't deny some people do shave because it's the norm, and fashionable. But some do it because they want to, why is that not enough for some people?

By some people I don't mean the feminist in this thread because you seem a nice bunch

Brushing your teeth is about stopping gum disease and fillings. Having dirty hair and skin - if you didnt clean it at all would affect your health. You would end up with skin diseases. That is why all animals keep themselves clean - it is for good health. Shaving has no positive impact on health.

blistory men do shave. Lots of men shave now. I do understand its not as frowned upon for a man to remain hairy but that still doesn't mean some women shave out of choice. They should keep getting beaten down for this. And comments thrown at them like 'have you for body dismorphia' and 'because of you I dancing be hairy without being abused'

Goldship - underarm hair yes. But I can tell you when I was young shaving your pubic hair was a very fringe practice

Dancing? That's meant to say can't!

And agree if it was generally viewed as fine for women not to shave, there wouldnt be an issue. It would be like men shaving their face - purely a personal choice.

Eatbrains - I say this in nearly every topic, but the ancient Egyptians removed their hair (all of it) long before!

Sorry, I was referring to the general hygiene such as teeth, washing etc when I said that men have to do that too.

I totally agree that some women shave because they personally like it and would do so even if it became unacceptable. The fact remains that women remain under pressure to do so

I'm not entirely sure that the ancient Egyptians were all that up on women's rights. There's been some interesting discussion on FWR as to how far back a patriarchial system goes and how a society favouring men first came about.

Could only manage to read until page 9 before I had to put my tuppence in!

I identify as a feminist because as far as I'm concerned it simply means that I feel men and women should have equal opportunities. I'm aware of the huge strides that have gone before to allow me the life that I have and I'm grateful.

I find it hard to understand when women say they aren't feminists, as they reap the benefits of the movement every day. To say, "well I don't feel discriminated against so I don't need feminism", is missing the point that the only reason you feel this way is because of the ideology you reject.

However, some of the views on FWR are over the top in my opinion. There have been a few threads where people have stated that PIV sex is something women shouldn't enjoy as it is domination of their body by a man, to give one memorable example. This is maybe why some women don't feel able to identify as a feminist, as they think people will think they are extremists.

One thing that I think is important is the way that the workplace is set up at present. The fact that women are indirectly prevented from accessing the top jobs is a lot to do with the long hours culture that has evolved. It has only been possible for men to work such long hours because historically their wives were home to look after the kids and home.

I feel that modern feminism needs to look at the role of men within the home, and we need to get to a place where the childcare and domestic duties are seen as equally the responsibility of both sexes. I'm sure a lot of men would love to be able to work part time and see their kids, and if there were more family friendly jobs out there for both men and women I think we'd all be a lot happier. Women brought up to think they can 'have it all' end up 'doing it all' simply because there hasn't been the shift in thinking from women as better at childcare and homemaking that we need.

Personally, I'm on ML at present but am returning to work full time in the new year, while my DH goes part time to look after our wee one. I'm anticipating a lot of questions upon my return about how I feel about leaving my child that my DH would never get, and it pisses me off that there is so much sexism still. There's still work to do!

Sorry, that's really long!

JESUS CHRIST the underarm hair thing was used as an example of people linking not agreeing to morals

Let's not have exactly the same debate here as well

Moving on...

Male facial hair can in many case be subject to conditioning.

I've had everything from full set, to goatee, to handlebars. bushy 'tache, to thin & waxed.

In a number of roles I've had "err, we prefer clean-shaven, as the clients expect it."

From the OP's perspective, I think few women wouldn't want the advances seen as due to feminism, but maybe they don't want to identify with what they see as "twoo feminists".

My - non-female - view is feminism is a broad church, and there's usually more that unites feminist groups than divides them - but damn, there are some huge divides.

I suppose no one likes feeling judged and feeling like they have to defend their choices. However, it cannot harm oneself to think about why you choose to do something. Either you will be satisfied that your choice is the right one or you will not be and might make a change that has a positive effect on your life.

I did shave my legs the other day as I was getting electric shocks at work which I presume was from the static build up between my leg hair, my tights and the new nylon carpets.

I've been accused of being socially conditioned because i shave all my fanjo hair off.

However when it comes to my numerous visits to the consultant I always leave it all on. I don't think the consultant really wants to see my bald fanjo ( although he probably couldn't care less)

Does that mean I think it's more socially acceptable to have hair than to be bald? I have no bloody idea

The t-shirts with, "This is what a feminist looks like", written on them show how much re-branding the feminist movement needs to do/is trying to do. It has had its image badly damaged and I don't think it will ever recover.

How many people say, "I'm a feminist, but not one of those nutty, shaven head radical types," or something similar. It always seems to be, "I'm a feminist but....." simply because the word feminist is now associated with extremism.

I believe in equal rights for women. I am concerned about issues which affect women negatively.

Well tough shit IMO.
I will continue to shave, I don't care if you all want to have body hair.
I refuse to be blamed because my conditioning choice makes life more difficult for you.
Instead of having a go at other women, find another tack and leave us alone.

Gold - I didnt know that about Egyptian men and women. I guess the difference is that men nowdays dont have the same pressure.

Did anyone watch Hilary Devey's programme last night on bbc, was interesting. She wants to get more women in the workplace

Handbag - I laughed at the static bit haha :o

I really think that's because feminism has been misrepresented.

Anyway, it's nothing new that not all women support feminism. Many women were against women getting the vote, back in the day!

It's not really about the shaving though is it ?

Women are expected to be attractive, youthful, sexy, chaste and we're encouraged by society to conform. Whilst I accept that there is a degree of pressure on men, their appearance is not so roundly judged and condemned.

Women remain judged in cases of sexual assault by their clothing and their behaviour. Too much emphasis is placed on the appearance of women when contrasted with the appearance of men.

Blistory - No, women are not expected to be attractive, youthful, sexy and chaste. That is what the radical feminists would like me to believe, but I don't.

I believe that age discrimination is a huge problem in the UK for both men and women. Let's not confuse the two issues.