To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

OMG!!! You made DH a cup of tea and a slice of cake!!!

That's conditioning I tells ye!!!!!!!

Yes Handbag, I thought you were a feminist too!!

I'm a victim of the pastry-archy :)

lol :)

I fucking hate breast/ bottle debates.

I want to bash my head on a desk every time.
As a woman I have an absolute right to decide if I want to have an abortion or not (and damn right)

But I come under scorn from huge sections of MN society for choosing not to bf my baby.

You get stats stats and more stats as if you must be an ignorant fuck if you disagree as to if the benefits are worth it to you as an individual.

thread hijack over

I feel sort of similar towards the hard line feminists - they shut you down and don't listen to your voice as you must obviously not have thought about it or questioned it, or you are a socially conditioned muppet

Kayano - I know some say this about RadFems. I have to say though that many Radical Feminists have been driven off the FWR board by the constant attacks they have been under.

Kayano, I suspect it comes across that way as any poster posting from a feminist perspective gets shot down with the ultimate 'BUT IT'S MY CHOICE'

Feminism is not about personal choice, that's a byproduct of the many changes but the aim wasn't to give women choice, it was to give them equality.

Blistory - I think a lot of it has to do with some feminists think they have to limit our choices to the ones they think will achieve equality. Which I think is damaging

Not one person attacked your personal choice on that thread Goldship. You admitted that you personally shaved because of social conditioning, which is something you appear to be claiming isn't a driver for your choices, on this one.

On what seemed like a fairly good-natured chatty thread to me, lots of women talked about their personal choices and acknowledged that they undertook certain practices because it's expected of women to do so. Some also accepted that if more women questioned it and rebelled against it, it would make a woman's choice not to shave easier. That's the point. We all make personal choices about these things but if the thing that determines that choice is society's expectation of your gender, it's a political issue and not just a personal choice.

The idea that you need to force people to be free is common in lots of ideologies.

I do htink that some actions/personal choices have such a disproportionate effect on the freedom of others that you shouldn't do them. Even if you want to.

But not many.

Of course it's about choice. It's certainly not about being controlled either way surely?

I'm not made to vote - but I have the choice to if I want
I'm not forced to be a CEO - but I should have the choice if I want

Yes it's about equality in relation to opportunities - but women's individual choices should matter and be respected regardless and not shut down and dismissed because the choose something else

I too think choices should be limited. The freedom to look at porn or visit a lapdancing club for example? I dont think any man or woman should have this choice.

But who is doing that kayano? Can you give an example of someone completely disregarding someone's genuine personal choice due to purely feminist ideology?

From an idealogical perspective, a woman's individual choice does not matter.

What matters is that that particular women has the freedom to make a choice along with every other woman, free from oppression or conditioning. And with that freedom comes responsibility that may conflict with any individual choice.

beth people who shave where personality attacked. And if you read what I posted properly, I didn't 'admit' to doing it because I am socially conditioned.

And no where am I saying that socially conditioning isn't why I do things.

READ WOMAN READ.

in that topic I stated that we are all socially conditioned. Every single one of us. That doesn't mean we don't make choices.

In this topic I have said I'm sick of people bringing up the social conditioning thing, like it's something new. Like we've never thought about it before and need educating by the all knowing rad fem.

If I've been socially conditioned to shave, then equally if the rad fems get their way I'll be socially conditioned not to.
And I will have my personal choice, fuck I hate being lectured to.

Lady - All most feminists want is for women to understand how they are conditioned to want to sahave and that some of the myths around it such as being more hygenic, are just that, myths. If you then want to shave, fine.

I freaking wish someone woud socially condition me not to shave ... it's so bloody repetitive. And it clogs the plug hole.

Would any woman shave if she was stranded on a desert island with no other humans and just her trusty Bic for company ?

If the answer is no in most cases, then there is no choice. It's conforming and an illusion of choice

Yeah ladybeagle that was a point I was wanting to make.

If I stopped shaving because of feminism that would be social conditioning too, wouldn't it?

But feminists say it like its a bad thing when it's not something they want people to do.

"they shut you down and don't listen to your voice as you must obviously not have thought about it or questioned it, or you are a socially conditioned muppet"

This.

"Kayano, I suspect it comes across that way as any poster posting from a feminist perspective gets shot down with the ultimate 'BUT IT'S MY CHOICE'"

It's an understandable response on a thread about the feminist stance on shaving, but it comes up on any and every thread about shaving. Even threads just asking for advice on shaving rash! There's also a lot of generalisations thrown about, I've seen it a few times where posters have said "ALL women who shave do so because they are socially conditioned".

blistory in all fairness, I probably would. But I'd try to brush my teeth too. And my hair. And wash myself. But those things are never brought up in a bad light.

Even before I became a Radical Feminist I was always amazed how much women and men denied the impact of social conditioning and the media. I find amongst my friends - women in their 40's and 50's - it has now become de rigeur to tidy up and cut their pubic hair. None of these women were doing this 10 years ago. So where has it come from if not conditioning?

I don't think there's owt wrong with admitting we're socailly conditioned.

I mean, of course we all are. I'm sitting here under a tent of foils having my roots bleached of their natural perfectly good colour!!!!!