To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

I am not a feminist because they appear to be patronising and assume anyone else is ignorant rather than having simply made different choices.

That doesn't mean I want to be treated worse than men.

"If millions more women did so more change would come about than if we all believed the same things but did not identigy as a group"

I don't know, I can kind of understand that. But at the same time I'm aware that the more people self identify as something the more varied the views within it - which is wonderful in theory - but in practice seems to instead split people up and cause infighting.

What I'd rather do is see more people working for the same things, even if under different labels.

This is probably not the best analogy, so bear with me. When I was younger I hung round with a large group of people from a variety of alternative music/fashion scenes. Understandably the best label we could use at that point was "Alternative", while we were all part of separate subcultures, it was easier to just identify under one fairly vague/non-specific label. What you did find was that if you got a large group together who were all part of the same subculture, which you'd expect to be great as they'd all agree, what actually happened was they fought against each other creating different sub-sub-cultures with rivalries and they'd try and impose a hierarchy of which group was most [subculture] than which. Turns out that under a more general label more good came about than under specific labels.

"What I suspect you mean is you didn't question those things"

Perfect example of why people aren't identifying with feminism (sorry for picking on your post Beth). If someone has decided differently it is assumed that it's because they hadn't thought about it, not because they had and felt differently.

I think there's too much emphasis on individual choices and not enough on the structural drivers which lead to them.

I don't judge a sahm for her individual choices but think it is a feminst issue that 90% plus of sahps are mums. Obviously an individual choice, however rational, is made within a context which mean that women are the ones mainly associated with childcare. It's the big picture we need to look at, not criticising people for their individual choices.

Similarly, I'm a feminist yet I changed my name when i got married. It does feel like a very unfeminist choice and I recognise the historical sexism behind the norm - but its what we wanted to do as a family and there were other things which were far more important to me.

I don't see traditional as necessarily equaling good. Husbands could rape their wife traditionally, women belonged to their father and then their husband traditionally, women's property passed to their husband on marraige traditionally. Just saying.......

I agree Elaine that there is an obvious disconnect there. There are many instances whereby stating a feminist view has been perceived as a personal attack when, in my view, the poster was simply explaining a feminist position which considered the reasoning behind a stance and not the individual's actual stance.

Feminist has for me not pleasant connotations. Like chauvanist for a man. Don't like either extremes. Feminism has had a bad press and lost the plot years ago.

I am old enough to remember when there were all the arguments in the press about whether rape in marriage should be illegal. Initially those calling for it to be made illeagl were mainly radical feminists and were seen as very very extreme. The argument went that it was impossible to have rape in marriage.

I would hope nowdays that most women would accept it is perfectly possible to be raped in marriage and that of course this should be illegal. But what is seen as an extreme view can change radically over relatively short spaces of time.

I struggle to understand how feminism can be a negative when you consider all the good it has done.

The reason I say I suspect that Squeaky didn't question it was that I for one didn't, 26 years ago. But as I've got older and more political, I look back and question those illogical and sexist 'traditions'. I wouldn't make those choices now, because I can see the bigger picture.

It's true that we need to look at the structural drivers behind individual choices and accept that no choice is made in a vacuum, but IMO we do need to look at and question the seemingly trivial and traditional, because things that appear to be innocuous and 'just fun' often have a bigger political driver behind them.

I agree that often "stating a feminist view has been perceived as a personal attack".

I took my husband's surname on marriage (purely because I preferred it), shave my armpits (too shy to deal with any negative attention), etc, but I've never felt personally attacked on the FWR board because I understand that it's not personal, these are simply feminist issues to be discussed.

I wish it was just as "normal" for the husband to take the wife's name, for women not to shave, be a SAH parent, and all the rest, that's why I'm a feminist.

Absolutely elaine. Personally I've made choices to work part time in education, to have a child and be the main carer, to get married prior to having a baby. But I didn't make those choices in a vacuum and my reasoning would differ and I suppose my choices would be different in a different society.

If you could work term time in the city pro rata in the top jobs, schools wouldn't be quite as attractive a proposition for people looking for family friendly hours!

I'm also a bit tired of every single topic being turned into a feminist issue. So annoying.

And I'm sick of being patronised by the old line 'we don't live in a vacuum, you need to understand why you've made those choices' oh and the key buzz words 'social conditioning'

Some of us DO know about social conditioning so stop being so high and mighty to assume we don't. We still do the things we do because we chose to

But Blistory, tradition is also not necessarily bad either, and this is what I mean by common sense, and middle ground.

A woman should not be scorned for WANTING her dad to walk her down the aisle.

Of course rape in marriage should be illegal, any form or abuse towards another person, whether married or not should be illegal.

I grew up in an era not that long ago when domestic violence was largely ignored by the police and dismissed. That was wrong, has been challenged and is now taken much more seriously. That is a good thing, and I would support any move to assist any person who is suffering within a relationship to have the access to help and be listened to and for action to be taken.

Oh but to some feminists if I make a decision they don't agree with its because I'm conditioned or oppressed.

This is why I don't fully support feminism.

Goldship - If some posters like me think that women should have a fair deal, then that is relevant to everything. So for example, a woman talking about her husband taking the piss with childcare and housework - of course this is a feminist issue.

"I struggle to understand how feminism can be a negative when you consider all the good it has done"

I am not for a moment disputing the good that womens rights and feminism have done in the past, and for many parts what they do now. However the negativity on these boards, towards women who the radfems do not feel are toeing the feminist hardcore stance, is depressing, and is responsible for the way that many people feel towards FWR.

And some feminists think that some women's choices are just plain selfish and harm other women's choices. I'm one of them.

Eatbrains - im not just on about those topics. Like the one we've got now, a man talking about his wife stealing. He put as his topic title 'the wife' as was met with YABU TO CALL HER THE WIFE.

Totally irrelevant to the thread and people missing the point.

I'm not scorning any women who choses that.

For me, I don't want to be given away as if I am a possession by one man to another. My father took a while to get his head around this but now understands my feelings and admits that he wouldn't dream of giving away his son. The answer might be that no-one gets given away or it might be that everyone gets given away.

My problem is that that it remains something that happens to women alone and traditionally was a way of passing ownership. That's why I questioned it. I didn't question your choice.

To be honest it would be good if some people stopped basing their negative opinions of the feminist movement/feminists on what they've seen a handful of people they don't agree with post on one internet forum, or what one feminist woman once said to them, and actually start looking at the good feminist groups, organisations and individuals do in society - and not just UK society, but in the world in general.

Bethfairbright - your comment further instils my idea that a lot of feminists don't like many women at all.

Ive been scorned by feminists who think that just because I'm shaving my armpits and fanjo, I'm doing them some great injustice.

Bistory, I was not saying that you personally are scorning women, just that there are many of the feminists who would and have been seen to do that on MN.

But Squeaky you're referring again to Mumsnet discussion boards. Surely your world view is shaped by more than that?

I rarely spend any length of time on one site, or any site for that matter. If I thought it was influencing me so much that I'd lost touch with real life, I'd get out more.