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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

574 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 16/09/2012 23:33

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

OP posts:
handbagCrab · 17/09/2012 14:05

If there was for example, a group of gay male soldiers talking about their life in the army I wouldn't expect:

  • that I could join at the same level as a gay male soldier, being neither gay, nor male, nor in the army
  • that I would be welcomed in a discussion about them that doesn't necessarily effect me
  • that them having a discussion amongst themselves deliberately excludes me and that I deserve to have a place in their debate
  • that they should give the same weight to all and any views on gay male soldiers, even when other gay, male soldiers might say things like 'I don't mind being taken off the front line because I'm gay' or 'I don't mind other soldiers grabbing my arse because it shows I'm still attractive, even when I'm in my uniform!'
  • that they should just stfu and not talk about issues that directly effect them that dont effect other people because we already have legislation about being gay and in the armed forces so it's all been done before
  • that if I was a gay, male soldier in the army that i would like and agree with all the other gay, male soldiers and that they would be respectful and inclusive of all my opinions.
  • that if I was a gay, female soldier that I would be welcomed into the debate. I might, but some issues would be profoundly different. I might want to set up my own group to discuss issues for gay, female soldiers instead or a joint group that people can choose to engage with, or not. It wouldn't be fair for me to demand a place in the discussion.
BegoniaBampot · 17/09/2012 14:07

EBAL - can you explain what makes you a radical feminist as opposed to just a feminist?

ClippedPhoenix · 17/09/2012 14:07

I'm an "Equalityist" and "Don'ttaketheruddypissist"

I do see a lot of inequality, especially in the home, which is sad.

It also radically gets my goat.

bigkidsdidit · 17/09/2012 14:07

I've posted in FWR over he past year and have never seen posts like the ones described above. I hink it's a bit of a case of 'give a dog a bad name and hang him' to use a good Malory Towers phrase

A debate in AIBU about parebt / child parking wouldn't make you stop driving, but a robust debate in FWR has the effect of stopping women on here identifying as feminists?

It is as word says a bu over reaction .

Feminism is just believing we are equal to men. Not the same, but equal.
Having intelligent women believe they can't be a feminist if they shave their legs is a victory for the sexists

bigkidsdidit · 17/09/2012 14:09

Scuse my millions of typos

squeakytoy · 17/09/2012 14:09

The issue that I have with most of the radicals is the approach of "you are wrong, we are right" if anyone dares to oppose their views. There is never a middle ground, and if your opinion does not conform to the "sisterhood", you are instantly branded an apologist of some sort.

I have seen more than one woman on these boards bullied by the radical feminists and told that they have been assaulted and even raped, when nothing of the sort has happened, one of the women knows that hasnt happened, and when she dared to say that as far as she was concerned she was not raped, she was shouted down and told that she didnt know what she was saying. It was horrific. Some of these "caring supportive women" then said "well, you are clearly a rape apologist, so why should we help you". Nice work ladies...

I have seen a woman applauded for going to the police to report a "rape", that in the eyes of many people was not rape, and never in any court in the land would be considered rape.

There are some radical feminists on this board that in my view are very dangerous people, who clearly have an agenda, and are not afraid to wrongly accuse a man and encourage the breakdown of relationships, when a bit of support and understanding, rather than a non-negotiable "leave the bastard" would be much more beneficial, and help the poster who needs it.

Blistory · 17/09/2012 14:10

I can?t speak for other posters on the FWR but would genuinely wish to offer apologies if anyone feels that they have been patronised or bullied by any comments that I have made.

If it helps to understand, I used to have the view that the feminist boards were full of posters with a fixed set of views and that it was impossible to voice anything other than the ?party line?. In honesty, there probably was a degree of that but there is genuinely more welcoming feel to FWR at the moment.

There are some extremely generous posters who will take the time, every time, to explain their viewpoints and welcome discussion. There are others who get frustrated with always having to justify their views and can come across as more abrupt. In fairness, they are usually involved in women?s rights and see a huge amount of domestic violence and rape and it must be incredibly upsetting for them to constantly feel that they are being harangued and attacked for their views.

There was a discussion a while back on FWR where many posters tried to understand the hostility and fear of the boards and there seemed to be a consensus that many of us as self identified feminists became a bit evangelical about feminism (in it?s various theoretical forms). For my part, once I started seeing how society worked, it became impossible to not see examples of inequality everywhere.

The recent example of threads about shaving show that we still don?t get it right when expressing our opinions sometimes. I don?t believe that the vast majority of feminists would say that you can?t shave your legs, be a SAHP, etc etc, but when you understand how these things arose, you may well have a different view on why you do them. I have been fortunate not to have experienced many blatant prejudices myself but I can still see them all around me every day. I can see why it?s so ingrained. Society tells us that women should be primped and preened, that we should be the main child carer, that we are vulnerable to attack from men. This is a society built by men in their favour. Women can drive changes that men perhaps do not see as necessary but in order to do that, we need to understand why society is the way it is.
Men, not individual men, but as a whole, start life with more advantages built into the system. No one is condemning men for that but the structures that make up society. These continue to favour men and the backlash against feminism seems to be one designed to put us back in our place.

There are so many little things that reinforce a patriarchial society that make up everyday lives, taking your husband?s name on marriage, your father giving you away, my title designating my marital status, being judged on how clean my house is, being judged as a mother, being judged on whether I shave my legs, wondering if it?s too late to say no, worrying that I might be judged as a slut, worrying that I might be judged as frigid. I don?t want men to have to worry about all these things, I want women NOT to have to. Until these issues simply don?t occur to women, then we don?t have equality or even freedom.

bigkidsdidit · 17/09/2012 14:14

but squeaky MN radical feminists are to feminism like evangelical American baptists are to Christianity

I'm a sort of CofE feminist - church on a sunday, married in church, don't read the bible = believe in equality, want to have the same opportunities as men, still wear makeup :)

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 17/09/2012 14:16

Begonia - Until I went on FWR I was like a lot of women here in terms of wanting equality. It was the FWR board that made me identify with radical feminism.

The difference really is first of all understanding there is the patriarchy i.e. male domination that exists in lots of ways throughout our society. Usually referred to in shorthand as the patriarchy.

In terms of the radical bit, this means getting to the root of. Radical feminists want patriarchy to be abolished, liberal feminists want to reform it and make it better.

Practically this means radical feminists are anti pornography - all of it, anti prostitution and want to criminalise men who buy sex as in norway, dont believe you can change sex, etc. There is a body of theory to support the idea of radical feminism.

If anyone wants to know more let me know or start a thread in FWR asking about it.

OP posts:
BethFairbright · 17/09/2012 14:16

I find it odd that so many people's apparently bad experience of feminism is confined to a few posters on one board of around 100, on just one (parenting) website. That this was enough to stop them self-identifying as a feminist.

If there had been posts sharing real-life bad experiences with virtually every feminist encountered, or genuine and well-argued disagreement with feminist politics, that at least would be an interesting and wider debate.

I confess I don't give much credibility to people whose views are so narrowly shaped and defined by the posts they read on a minority interest website and am incredulous that women really don't see the inequalities in their real lives that feminism is dedicated to revoking.

Blistory · 17/09/2012 14:17

To be fair to radical feminists, Eats has identified herself as one and I don't think that anyone could accuse her of being unreasonable in the way she expresses her views.

I'm a liberal feminist and disagree with some of her feminist theories but have never had a problem with the way she expresses them so can we quit with the mad MN radfems please ?

MrDobalina · 17/09/2012 14:18

you need radicals though...you need radical everythings. Thats how change gets affected. You dont change anything by being all middle-of-the-roady-sit-on-the-fencey-dont-rock-the-boaty

bigkidsdidit · 17/09/2012 14:18

Beth I have to say I agree

Empusa · 17/09/2012 14:18

"A debate in AIBU about parebt / child parking wouldn't make you stop driving, but a robust debate in FWR has the effect of stopping women on here identifying as feminists?"

Not a fair comparison really. Because we aren't talking about people refusing to engage in furthering the aims of feminism, just not doing it under that label.

For me personally it's more like the fact that I believe in most of what Wiccans believe in, but would rather not be associated with some of the more outlandish ideas held by some Wiccans, so instead I call myself Pagan. Your analogy would be more like if I didn't identify with the Wiccans then I'd given up on them and got myself baptised as CofE instead.

squeakytoy · 17/09/2012 14:19

"There are so many little things that reinforce a patriarchial society that make up everyday lives, taking your husband?s name on marriage, your father giving you away, my title designating my marital status"

But all of those are things which I really do not see as being big problems in life. I would have absolutely loved my Dad to "give me away", but he had died before I got married. I happily took my husbands name, because we became a family unit, and it did not for one moment occur to me that meant I was bowing to a patriarchial society. Having his surname does not make me any less of an independant woman with my own brains, my own career and my own views.

Yes, I am a "mrs", so bloody what.. I love my husband and am proud to be his wife.

Blistory · 17/09/2012 14:20

No one said it was wrong squeaky but why don't men have to do those things ?

handbagCrab · 17/09/2012 14:21

blistory that's a great post.

bigkidsdidit · 17/09/2012 14:21

Grin Empusa I can't believe you kept my shite spelling in that quote

I'm not sure - I think that somehow identifying as a feminist is powerful in itself. If millions more women did so more change would come about than if we all believed the same things but did not identigy as a group

enimmead · 17/09/2012 14:21

It seems a lot of the more "radical" radical feminists have moved on from FWR. Even though they got their own board.

There haven't been any 1000 comments threads for a while.

ByTheWay1 · 17/09/2012 14:23

squeakytoy well said.....

squeakytoy · 17/09/2012 14:26

"No one said it was wrong squeaky but why don't men have to do those things ?"

Because traditionally in the western world, or certainly the UK and USA, that is how it goes. Marriage itself is a tradition.

Fine, if you dont want to follow tradition, then dont, but do not berate others and belittle them because they do choose to be traditional. Which is often what happens.

BethFairbright · 17/09/2012 14:27

What I suspect you mean is you didn't question those things and wonder why an adult woman needed any man to 'give her away' to another, why anyone has to lose their name on marriage, why the default is for a woman to lose hers and why a title exists to denote a woman is married and yet there is no male equivalent. Feminism is as much about questioning the status quo and its origins and then seeing how these apparently trivial things influence and perpetuate other major inequalities, that often disadvantage men as well as women.

I presume your partner is proud to be your husband, but he didn't have anyone giving him away because there is no history of marriage conferring female ownership, he wasn't expected to change his name and no-one receiving an official communication from him would know that he was married. Has any of that dented his pride in being married to you?

LemarchandsBox · 17/09/2012 14:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeanieStats · 17/09/2012 14:29

FWIW As a woman working in a senior position in a traditionally masculine environment I don't call myself a feminist because I don't want to be associated with the type of idiots who post on the FWR boards.

squeakytoy · 17/09/2012 14:29

But nobody did give me away Beth because he wasnt there to be able to do it. It is a traditional but optional role. It is rather meaningless nowadays, but it is just something that many brides and their fathers actually enjoy as part of a day of celebrations.

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