To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

Empusa - We don't need to identify as feminists in 2012 and beyond if we are striving for equal rights.

Language evolves.

Empusa I think there's a lot of power in words.
They have the ability to encapsulate things.

And the word feminism to me, encapulates somehting so very positive. The more of us that say we identify with that positive message, the more natural and obvious it will be to adopt it as a way of life. It would become part of our societal DNA. Sexism would soon be the lunatic fringe that we'd all laugh at.

Sahm or being a carer for example is I think a feminist issue.

Why do more women than men opt for family based, unpaid roles? Are women inherently better at caring unpaid/low paid roles or is it something else?

Why are these roles unfinancially rewarded or very low paid? is it because these roles are worthless or so rewarding they should be done for free or is it something else? If Sahp was paid say £190 a week per child by the state (same cost as my nursery) would it still be mostly women doing it? Or would sahms refuse payment because the role is enough reward in itself?

It's a shame that unpaid work is often low status. This goes for carers. I find with carers in particular that it's not so much that females were inherently better at it. More that they were more expected to do it, and some male family members didn't even consider the responsibility theirs.

"And the word feminism to me, encapulates somehting so very positive."

The word Equalist feels more positive to me. It also has the handy advantage of actually encapsulating feminism, anti-disablism, anti-racism, anti-sexism, in fact all anti-isms.

wordfactory - we have completely different understandings of the same word. At the moment, the word 'feminism' is the lunatic fringe for me. 'Equality', on the other hand, isn't.

You know what's really nice about this thread?

It hasn't kicked off or got petty/squabbly/silly.

If more threads were like this, rather than being derailed by heavy handed posters on either side of the debate, there would be far more understanding all round...even if not everyone does agree with each other.

Who am I kidding? I should be adding it to the supply

Worra You could call it the MN cocktail!

Hush your mouth Empusa!

I'm sure you mean the MN Vaginatail

Wasn't it suggested that vagina was an offensive word? Should it be a Fanjotail instead?

Cuntail?

I think the term equality is so broad though, that it needs to be broken down and looked at expertly.

For example I can't say, not being disabled, what the best way to bring about equakity for disabled people should be. The world needs to be looked at through the prism of being disabled. Then the best policies can filter through.

All feminism means is looking at the world through the eyes of a woman and asking what would help in this situation.

Amybelle: It was actually one of my bugbears about the feminist group I joined. I didn't agree with excluding men from the group - although meeting a few male lefty activists who seemed to have skipped the gender equality part of leftwing principles, did make me reconsider.

The other thing was feminists excluding trans men - they also attended a holiday at a centre that excludes ALL trans people, even those who identify as women!

To me, that was like staying at a BNP camp and saying, "Oh, but it's okay, they support women's equality."

But wordfactory, the word 'feminism' has evolved. As shown by the comments on these boards, it has very negative connotations in 2012, so much so, that many women do not wish to be labelled as such. Absolutely, equality is a very broad term. I have no problems with the word gender discrimination, racial discrimination, etc.

I do not wish to describe myself as a feminist, nor do I wish to be described as a feminist. My choice.

florence I really don't think it's evolved. I think it's been nicked form under our very noses. Time to take it back.

I peered into the FWR board the other day when I was lying in my sickbed... it amused me no end to see that thread about renaming the vagina.

If that isnt enough to put sane people off the Feminist boards, I really dont know what is... that has to be one of the most ridiculous threads on there that I have ever seen, and I really could not bring myself to associate with people who have that sort of mindset.

wordfactory - if the word has been nicked, it has evolved. I've moved on.

Sorry wordfactory, by moving on, I meant that I've accepted that the word has started to mean extreme feminism to many people, not that I'm moving on in the debate!

Think it's a great debate actually.

Maybe I'm too stuborn.
I refuse to give up on it .

Maybe when the ship goes down there'll just be me and Caitlin Moran chugging on a bottle of gin singing Je Ne Regrette Rien .

I am a radical feminist, so one of those extremists women here are talking about. But there are some threads on FWR that interest me and others that dont. I just ignoire the ones I am not interested in.

I hate the idea as well that women only ever have views like mine because of lots of bad experiences with men. of course some will have had, like some non feminists have had. But I have had a relatively easy life. I am not a radical feminist because of lots of bad personal experiences.

Have to go feminists one and all.

Need to speak to my editor. Then get my roots done.

Oh rien de rien...oh je ne regrette rien...

mrschewbacker - Few feminists think spending time with your children isnt important. I can only think of one well known poster who says all women should have high paying jobs or they are not a feminist. Other posters fequently tell her on FWR that her views are not feminist ones.

Wordfactory - the equality ship won't go down but the feminist ship may, if they carry on the way they are doing.

Well, as this is a reasonable thread, I'll stick with the tone .

I find that a certain faction of feminists are probably among the most misogynistic individuals I have ever encountered. I know for an absolute certainty that they will be shaking their heads at a lot of this thread, thinking that we are simply patriarchal tools that know not what we say.

To say that feminism is simply about 'why would you want to be treated worse than men?' is utterly misleading.

I read on here once that it's difficult for some women because we 'give birth to our oppressors'. It's this kind of unpleasantness that I find difficult to tolerate.

Men have shit to contend with too, but unlike women, they find it a lot harder to get support. I don't buy the 'patriarchy' concept.

The only oppressing I've ever really come across, has come from other women (particularly feminists).