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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

to think that "sexual harassment" is a bit strong to describe this event?

614 replies

BartiiMus · 14/09/2012 10:22

At a training session with work. 3 days, 2 nights on-site.

Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Last night at a party my colleague told us that there'd been "sexual harassment" during the training this summer but refused to say who had been involved. After a bit of coaxing and lots of clues from him we worked out who the man had been, and our colleague confirmed it.

I know him, I've worked with him before and he's a nice bloke. I'm not saying he didn't do this but he tried it on, was refused and left. Is that really "sexual harassment"?

To be honest, I'm a bit pissed off with the gossip colleague who told us all because it's a bit of a non-event (man tries to pull woman, woman refuses, man leaves) but he's usually highly emotive language like "sexual harassment" to describe it. She's not even reporting it. The man isn't her boss or anything and they don't work together.

I know I probably don't have all the story but I do know the gossip well and he does love to exagerate and I don't think it's very fair to man A to have people slinging mud at him like this.

So, deep breath AIBU?

OP posts:
Pendeen · 14/09/2012 12:48

AGoldenOrange

Can you tell us which piece of legislation you used to 'fire' the person as the opinion seems to be that it is not harassement in the legal sense because this was a single act.

Genuine question because that's the usual legal definition?

MissPerception · 14/09/2012 12:50

GreenD - hah, completely agree.

Lots of these posts give those infamous "womens libbers" a bad name.

DeWe · 14/09/2012 12:50

The problem is that it is a very thin line, and I don't think the line is in the same place all the time, iyswim.

If there had been a "connection" and things had gone on from there, you'd have probably been gossiping about how sweet it was and how he'd "had to pretend he couldn't remember the password to meet her" and wasn't it romantic...

If he tried to kiss her and she'd refused and he'd pressed it, then definitely wrong.

I go to a group which is roughly 50/50 men/women-most people are with their partners, some are from countries where kiss on either cheek is their standard greeting. They do tend to kiss cheeks upon meeting. I don't particularly like it, it makes me uncomfortable. But it's not sexual harrassment at all.
I usually manage to avoid it by one trick or other, but if I meet one when out, sometimes they do it naturally before I've avoided it Grin. They otoh are very comfortable with it as a greeting and would find not doing it standoffish.

geegee888 · 14/09/2012 12:50

Well, exactly Latara. He could have phoned and asked to come to her room for coffee. Or he could have asked her out on a date when they were both free. He chose to lie and get access to her hotel room on a work related pretext and then lunge at her when he misread the signals. He could even have tried going into her room first and taking things a little slower. Its pretty obvious he wanted a cheap shag at a works away trip without any of the above hassles though. LOL at the mumsnetters thinking about such a catch being missed out upon!

WinklyFriedChicken · 14/09/2012 12:50

LRD this is NOT the same as marital rape!! Not even close!

Midgetm · 14/09/2012 12:52

Am I missing something? The woman who it happened to DID NOT think it was. Yet the majority on here still seem to think it was. I feel sorry for men, seriously if anyone TRIED to kiss some of you lot you'd have his balls in a necklace round his neck soon as look at him. Grin

fluffyraggies · 14/09/2012 12:52

She invited him to her room knowing full well that he fancied her, as she had been lapping up the attention he was showing her earlier in the bar.

Chocolate, we don't know she knew he fancied her and we don't know what went on in the bar.

FWIW i have been asked by a bloke if it's ok to kiss me and i found it knee tremblingly sexy! So was he. So was the kiss! Grin

LRDtheFeministDragon · 14/09/2012 12:52

Oh, for crying out loud!

winkly, I know it isn't the same. I never said or meant it was the same.

Please don't make straw man arguments.

The point is, this is sexual harassment under our current laws. It's frightening to think what went on before those laws were passed. Ok?

geegee888 · 14/09/2012 12:53

Pendeen while not wishing to answer for the poster you are asking, if the conduct is of such a high element of gross misconduct, of course it enables sacking without notice. Sexual harassment, such as going to someone's hotel room on a work related lie and attempting unwanted physical conduct is a very clear example of gross misconduct. Lesser sexual harassment which might need more than one instance to justify firing might be offensive comments, pictures of naked women displayed in a shared workplace, etc..

messyisthenewtidy · 14/09/2012 12:53

I'm so totally on the fence I can feel the spikes going up my bum..

OTOH, he could have genuinely thought she liked him and when she turned him down he left without causing a fuss....

OTOH, he was putting her in awkward situation by making the move late at night knowing that she would be alone in her room.

OTOH this could be because, as a bloke, he doesn't understand the idea of physical vulnerability a woman might feel in that situation. Also, he knows that he's a nice guy and wouldn't force anything. Which he didn't..

OTOH, the work environment makes it slightly dodgier..

OTOH, loads of people meet their future spouses at work.

So, yep, still on the fence. Only thing I'm sure of is that she did nothing wrong in inviting him other, could have been out of politeness or because she trusted him completely.

kdiddy · 14/09/2012 12:54

In order for this to be harassment, the key point is that the person, the man in this case, has to know that his behaviour is unwelcome and continue to act on it nonetheless. As far as I can see he misread signals, tried it on, was rejected, and stopped. So according to this, as soon as he recognised the behaviour was unwelcome, he left. In another situation, the woman might have been interested in him, and kissed him back, so clearly that wouldn't have been harassment either. The important thing in relation to the harassment definition is that he did not act once he knew it was unwelcome.

If he had persisted after he should reasonably have known to stop, then yes it would be harassment (or worse) but he didn't. What he did was clearly inappropriate, and disingenuous, and potentially distressing for the woman, but it wasn't harassment.

This is why context is everything.

geegee888 · 14/09/2012 12:56

No, it was sexual harassment because he acted inappropriately in a work setting. A higher standard of behaviour is expected of employees at work or at work related activities.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 14/09/2012 12:56

kdiddy - but doesn't anyone have a responsibility to know what behaviour is appropriate and what is not?

If you compare to other kinds of workplace misconduct - like plagiarising something, for example - it's not ok to do it if you do it in ignorance.

WinklyFriedChicken · 14/09/2012 12:56

LRD I am saying that someone raping a person is worlds away from someone thinking the other person might want to kiss them and stopping when they realised they were wrong. The latter is much much closer to a husband going in for a shag and being told 'not tonight dear', and stopping.

fluffyraggies · 14/09/2012 12:57

Glad i'm not alone.

seeker · 14/09/2012 12:57

Slight hijack- is anyone on here aware of Rebecca Watson?

Pendeen · 14/09/2012 12:58

geegee888

Can you say where this is defined either in a case or legislation as harassement beccause we seem to be getting mixed messages here.

Not trying to be difficult just interested.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 14/09/2012 12:58

Honestly, winkly, I promise I wasn't suggesting it was remotely the same.

I only thought of it because green posted about MNers who wouldn't have been born if everyone had always reacted to this sort of thing as sexual harassment - it made me think about, well, conception and the law, so marital rape came to mind.

That's all - it wasn't an attempt to compare the two and I apologize to anyone who read it like that.

chocolatebuttin22 · 14/09/2012 12:59

The man who is saying it sexual harassment is just looking for gossip to brighten up his boring day at the office.
The way some poeple on this thread are carrying on you would think they have never had anyone try kiss them. Either we are dealing with people who wear signs saying dont try and kiss me as its sexual harassment or this thread has attracted the ogres who know one wants to kiss !!!!!!!

geegee888 · 14/09/2012 13:01

Pendeen a very quick google search brings up the following:

www.lawyerlocator.co.uk/lawyer/legal_issues/get_article/id/251/Sexual-harassment/

Which describes the legislation.

I am currently trying to find a case which answers the question you ask. You will excuse me if providing you with an education as to what constitutes sexual harassment in the workplace in the modern day and age takes me a few moments...

WinklyFriedChicken · 14/09/2012 13:02

Fair 'nuff LRD :)

I have a feeling that nobody who thinks this wasn't harassment will be persuaded it was, and vice versa. It may be time to tactically withdraw from this thread.

fluffyraggies · 14/09/2012 13:02
LRDtheFeministDragon · 14/09/2012 13:04

Maybe you're right, winkly (though there are some people on the fence just posting now).

I would like to see a situation where this sort of thing was more routinely understood as just not a good idea, without having to get up in arms about it. I do believe that anyone should know not to be so daft with a work colleague. Why take a chance if you might upset someone, when it's perfectly easy to just ask them out for a drink instead?

That's my feeling.

geegee888 · 14/09/2012 13:06

And another really quick google search finds the case of Insitu Cleaning Co Ltd v Head (1994), an employment tribunal decided that a single act of unwanted conduct could amount to harassment.

Its crazy to suggest that an unwanted sexual advance in the workplace would not constitute sexual harassment because it only happens once! By the nature of sexual harassment, its usually low key and builds up over time, but if an employee gropes or attempts to kiss another employee only once, it is obviously harassment even though its only a one off.

fluffyraggies · 14/09/2012 13:07

LRD: Why take a chance if you might upset someone, when it's perfectly easy to just ask them out for a drink instead?

exactly. (Maybe i'm coming down off that fence now. i want to)

It was a bloody stupid thing for him to do at the very least.