to think that "sexual harassment" is a bit strong to describe this event?

[BartiiMus]

At a training session with work. 3 days, 2 nights on-site.

Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Last night at a party my colleague told us that there'd been "sexual harassment" during the training this summer but refused to say who had been involved. After a bit of coaxing and lots of clues from him we worked out who the man had been, and our colleague confirmed it.

I know him, I've worked with him before and he's a nice bloke. I'm not saying he didn't do this but he tried it on, was refused and left. Is that really "sexual harassment"?

To be honest, I'm a bit pissed off with the gossip colleague who told us all because it's a bit of a non-event (man tries to pull woman, woman refuses, man leaves) but he's usually highly emotive language like "sexual harassment" to describe it. She's not even reporting it. The man isn't her boss or anything and they don't work together.

I know I probably don't have all the story but I do know the gossip well and he does love to exagerate and I don't think it's very fair to man A to have people slinging mud at him like this.

So, deep breath AIBU?

LRD yes people have to act within what they think are the bounds of reasonable behaviour. The problem as I see it here is that this sort of thing happens all the time. People meet partners at work, have relationships, have flings etc. so this is a really grey area because in many many cases, advances like that would be welcomed. Therefore it would be hard to argue he categorically should have known he would be rebuffed.

Plagiarism, in your example, like theft, or violence, are things that as a society we commonly accept are wrong, so you'd expect anyone to know that without having to spell it out to them. It is easier for things like that where there is more black and white clarity about it, but in this case there are so many variables that mean it isn't something you could absolutely expect him to know would be unwelcome.

Hmm, I think the defining feature is is telling a big fat lie to get into her room. If he genuinely thought there was a connection, why not be honest?

(last post - just to answer LRD)

My relationship with DH started in much the same way as this, though except for coming to my room he walked with me to a train station he had no need to go to. It was dark, quiet and late at night. He kissed me. We had been for drinks, with colleagues, and I would have been really uncomfortable if he'd kissed me in front of them. Not the case when we had a bit of privacy.

There's always a chance you'll upset someone in this sort of circumstance, always a chance you'll offend them. There have been people in work that, had they asked me out on a date, would have made my skin crawl - and it would have felt inappropriate for whatever reason, far more so than this seems to me on the basis of facts presented. I simply cannot condemn this man under the circumstances as described here because people do kiss people they're attracted to and have spent time with, before going on formal dates and/or asking permission.

Agree man was in the wrong for tricking his way into her room (and if that was his stated goal and she'd tried to tell him the password would he have said oh I can't hear you over the bar noise, shall I just pop up?)

I do think it would be a good idea to include vulnerability in PSHE though as I do think some men don't empathise. Do you remember when the female hotel manager was in a room trying to help some of the UK rugby team and they were "bantering" with her? I do think it's possible they thought they were joking around and didn't think about the double whammy of power dynamics of (a) them being customers and (b) her being a lone female in a group of strong blokes inside a closed room.

Mmm. But kdiddy, with plagiarism, we don't commonly accept what's wrong. There are actually masses of people who don't know what counts as plagiarism and would be just as up in arms about it as people on this threada re about this issue.

It's not black and white at all. And also, ideas about what is appropriate in teh workplace change. So you have to train people and get them to recognize what's the right thing to do, too. Like the way that we can probably all understand why a person who's just not aware of what they're saying might use a racist term with good intentions - that's excusable, but if they did it at work they would have to be told that it was inappropriate, and disciplined.

Winkly, were there indications in the interaction between you and your DH prior to him kissing you that you were romantically and/or sexually interested in each other?

winkly - for me the difference would be he didn't lie to get you into that situation, I think.

But I do think that just because one person doesn't mind something, doesn't mean it's a great idea for it to happen in the workplace. Sorry to keep pushing the plagiarism analogy - but, lots of people wouldn't give a toss about being slightly misquoted. Some people would sue. So it must always be correct.

@seeker Oh very yes. It's one of the (many) reasons why I can't abide Dawkins.

If I had the slightest doubt as to whether this was sexual harassment or not, the fact that everyone who thinks it wasn't also think that it was the woman's fault for saying he could come and get the code would prove to me that it was!

Touche.

Winkly I would guess that during the course of the walk you and DH to be developed more of a connection - and if you hadn't he wouldn't have kissed you. Also, speaking personally, I would feel more intimidated by someone trying to kiss me in my room behind a closed door than at a station when my train was due so I had an "exit".

It would be interesting to see how many of the people who think it wasn't sexual harassment work in predominantly male professions/work places and often have to attend conferences/business trips with colleagues.

Applauds seeker.

But discussing how winkly's situation compares to this one is never going to get us an answer, I think.

We always look at this from the perspective of what the bloke does and thinks, so we're looking at situations where we know of a bloke who did something similar to the bloke in the OP, as if that's the natural and automatic parallel.

But we could/should be looking at other situations where the woman has a parallel experience. I mean, why should the man's experience be the default?

Maybe that's why it's so hard to come to an agreement about what constitutes sexual harrassment.

If I had the slightest doubt as to whether this was sexual harassment or not, the fact that everyone who thinks it wasn't also think that it was the woman's fault for saying he could come and get the code would prove to me that it was!

I dont think it was harassment and I also dont think it was the womans fault either, just a woman turning down a man, who didnt try it on any further. Ok it happened in a work place setting - but maybe the fact it wasnt in an actual workplace complicated the matter, i.e you dont normally get bedrooms at work!

I work in a mainly female environment (1 man).

Back2 - that was me. I dunno, I do feel it was creepy but I guess you're right, it might be I would like him just fine if I knew him.

Still think it was harrassment.

@LRD I have had many parallel experiences (when younger. Am an old boiler now - but also quite a senior old boiler luckily for me). On every single occasion the attention/approach was unwanted, unlooked for and unprovoked. I have had men knocking on my room door on training courses when I was a trainee. I have had (drunk) men attempt to grope or kiss me (or both) at conferences when I have just been trying to leave procedings as early as possible. This sort of behaviour is never ever acceptable. And yet, it is rife. Particularly when you attend international events as I typically do. Very sad.

Speaking to myself here but the woman who it happened to DID NOT think it was. I agree with her but I in no way think it was her fault. It was a non incident. People need to get out more.

Intentional irony there midget?

We're all sitting around on an internet forum.

mordion - I agree. I find it annoying that people seem to think if what this bloke did once, he should be given freedom to do it again and again, as if all women will react the same. Erm, no, we won't! So don't do it!

I don't think it was her fault for inviting him to her room. But it may have been, in his eyes, the green light. Especially as the info could have been given over the phone.

Sorry for going in circles.

This 'come to my room' thing is, i feel, what he would use in his own defense if he were posting here.

I don't, by any means, mean to say once she invited him he was free to do as he pleased, of course. Hence no fault of hers.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Is what the OP actually wrote. We have no idea whether or not the woman in question considers it to be sexual harassment or not, we only know she is not going to report it.

And most people don't sit around saying after ever workplace interaction that they are not going to report it, because for most interactions, that doesn't need to be said.

shakes head up and down knowingly.....but what was she wearing???

Nasty gossiping.....big trouble makers...sad no lifers.

Could be, fluffy. But then ... well, isn't this sort of thread, and sexual harrassment in general, there to make us think about whether that's a sensible assumption to make?

Back in the day (ok, still now, but more back in the day), perfectly 'nice' men were taught to think that a woman in a short skirt was showing him she wanted sex. People don't develop opinions in a vacuum; they get them from their surroundings, and when those surroundings change and new laws are brought in, slowly ideas about what's ok change too. IMO.