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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think that "sexual harassment" is a bit strong to describe this event?

614 replies

BartiiMus · 14/09/2012 10:22

At a training session with work. 3 days, 2 nights on-site.

Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Last night at a party my colleague told us that there'd been "sexual harassment" during the training this summer but refused to say who had been involved. After a bit of coaxing and lots of clues from him we worked out who the man had been, and our colleague confirmed it.

I know him, I've worked with him before and he's a nice bloke. I'm not saying he didn't do this but he tried it on, was refused and left. Is that really "sexual harassment"?

To be honest, I'm a bit pissed off with the gossip colleague who told us all because it's a bit of a non-event (man tries to pull woman, woman refuses, man leaves) but he's usually highly emotive language like "sexual harassment" to describe it. She's not even reporting it. The man isn't her boss or anything and they don't work together.

I know I probably don't have all the story but I do know the gossip well and he does love to exagerate and I don't think it's very fair to man A to have people slinging mud at him like this.

So, deep breath AIBU?

OP posts:
MySpanielHell · 15/09/2012 18:30

Feminine, how did you become friends with your male friends?

atacareercrossroads · 15/09/2012 18:32

Yes mellen that's what happens, IME anyway. You either reciprocated or not. It wasnt the minefield it seems to be now. Glad I'm not a bloke but do feel bad for my boys growing up if this is how it is now.

Blistory · 15/09/2012 18:33

You have a very low opinion of men then feminine

OneMoreChap · 15/09/2012 18:36

LRDtheFeministDragon Sat 15-Sep-12 14:15:34
Why couldn't he ask a woman for a kiss, thebees?

You seriously ask that?
Because it could be seen as harassment. Why should he assume that woman was interested in being kissed etc...

And you know that sort of thing is said.

BoneyBackJefferson · 15/09/2012 18:37

MySpanielHell

The complainant has to make the request.

There is a big difference between someone saying
"X keeps touching my shoulder and I don't like it, so can you have a word, but keep it on record"
and
"X is sexually harassing me, do something"

squeakytoy · 15/09/2012 18:43

"Why on earth is it assumed that the default position is that the woman should have to reject a man's sexual advances ? Should the default position not be for the man to determine whether his advances would be welcomed ?"

Is that not what happened?? He tried to kiss her, she refused, so clearly his advance was not welcomed.

There is no "default position" for a particular gender. If any man or woman is advanced upon sexually, then they have the right to say yes or no. This particular tale involved a woman, and she said no. That was all. It could easily have been the genders reversed. However as I said earlier, I strongly suspect the responses would have been very different. Probably along the lines of "well dont worry, he must have led you on".

Double standards are always alive and kicking on MN.

MySpanielHell · 15/09/2012 18:44

No, there isn't a difference in that sense. Both, in law, are considered sexual harassment - it is just that some cases are dealt with informally and some formally. But it is not the formality that makes the difference in whether or not they are considered to be sexual harassment.

And perhaps the reason people don't know these things is because they don't attend diversity days which are largely about explaining the law, possibly because they are under the illusion that diversity days are some kind of chakra inspecting, naval gazing sort of situation.

squeakytoy · 15/09/2012 18:44

And, he had already (wrongly) determined that his advances would be welcomed, so he made an error, no harm was done, he went away again.

ravenAK · 15/09/2012 18:50

I was staying in a hotel with dh & dc this summer (his work, somewhere nice, taking us along was a perk) & took the kids to swim in the hotel pool.

Ds got chatting to a bloke who was also swimming, I went over to ensure he wasn't annoying the poor chap, & ended up having a very pleasant conversation about the tribulations of teaching one's offspring to swim with this bloke, which concluded when he asked me to dinner that evening.

I declined ('that's very nice of you, but I'm not sure dh wants to cope with these three on his own for dinner!').

I then swam off like this Grin.

Attempting to pick someone up in a hotel by asking them to dine with you/have a drink/coffee/sod it, do you want to come back to my room for a shag? = perfectly fine in my book.

Inveigling your way into a work colleague's room under false pretences, making a clumsy pass & then attempting to justify it by blithering about 'connections' rather than just apologising profusely = inappropriate, harassment.

Hopefully, I won't have to worry about ds because I'll have drummed into him a few basics about courtship rituals, eg. not being a lying sleaze who pesters his work colleagues...

Kayano · 15/09/2012 18:54

Feminine you must be smokin hot.

I've been hit on once... And everyone knows about it because I tell them to boost my pathetic ego

'well, this one time when someone tried it on...'

I don't tell them it was the only time Wink lol

BoneyBackJefferson · 15/09/2012 18:54

It is the formal/informal nature of the complaint that defines how a company will react to the complaint.

It is that which makes the difference.

MySpanielHell · 15/09/2012 18:58

Yes, I agree with you, BBJ. But that isn't what you said. You said that only formal complaints and not informal ones were sexual harassment, which is not the case. And the topic of this thread is what is sexual harassment, not what would make a suitable case for a formal complaint.

BoneyBackJefferson · 15/09/2012 19:06

If you could point out where I said

"only formal complaints and not informal ones were sexual harassment"

I would be grateful, as I haven't said that at all.

MySpanielHell · 15/09/2012 19:10

'The complainant has to make the request.

There is a big difference between someone saying
"X keeps touching my shoulder and I don't like it, so can you have a word, but keep it on record"
and
"X is sexually harassing me, do something"'

I assumed that you meant the latter was sexual harassment and the former was not, which is not the case. As for 'genuine' victims of sexual harassment wanting the culprit to leave, that has not been my experience. Many people want the person to stop their behaviour, not for the person to lose their job.

atacareercrossroads · 15/09/2012 19:14

Leaving aside the fact that he didn't exactly lie his way into her room, being being worried that my sons might get accused of sexual harassment for leaning in for a kiss does not mean I will be raising my sons to be sleazy, just to counter the insinuation above .Hmm

Balderdashandpiffle · 15/09/2012 19:16

They're probably married by now.

BoneyBackJefferson · 15/09/2012 19:19

Yes your assumption is wrong; the reply was to the different nature of formal/informal complaints and how they are dealt with in a company.

Your experience is the polar opposite of mine where the victim wants the person to leave the firm.

'genuine' was the wrong term to use, but you are now being picky.

MySpanielHell · 15/09/2012 19:20

They're probably putting in a joint complaint that they they are been sexually harassed by a bunch of work base gossipers discussing what happened and a colleague posting about it on the internet.

If I were either of them and I found out about this, I'd print this out and make a complaint against the OP.

ravenAK · 15/09/2012 19:20

Leaning in for a kiss in a social scenario = absolutely fine.

Leaning in for a kiss when you have LIED to your work colleague in order to wangle your way into her hotel room in a WORK context = sleazy sexual harassment.

I shall be raising my son to understand the difference. Luckily for him, me, & the future women in his life I understand the difference.

MySpanielHell · 15/09/2012 19:21

BBJ, I apologise for misinterpreting your post.

squeakytoy · 15/09/2012 19:24

Well, I maybe wouldnt have been married for ten years now if my husband hadnt kissed me when we were both in the workplace.... :)

However if I hadnt fancied him already, when he leaned in for a kiss I would have just said "sorry, not interested"..

And we would have just carried on working together..

ravenAK · 15/09/2012 19:31

It's the lie as a Trojan Horse that's the issue for me.

Given that he told her, according to the OP, that he didn't actually come to her room for the code thingy, it seems reasonable that at some level he thought 'Hmm, if I ring & ask if I can join her for a coffee, she'll say no'. & then worked out a plausible excuse to get into her room & make his move.

If he'd just tried to snog her in the bar, & she'd knocked him back, I'd be firmly in the 'clumsy pass, no harm done beyond mutual embarrassment' camp.

BoneyBackJefferson · 15/09/2012 19:31

Myspanielhell

no apology necessary. :)

I often come across wrong on forums, I find that a screen lacks the nuances that I try to convey.

squeakytoy · 15/09/2012 19:32

But with the internet thing, it would have been very easy for her to give him this code over the phone, even the OP has confirmed that.

ravenAK · 15/09/2012 19:43

It's much easier to give someone the gizmo than to attempt to dictate a code down the phone which changes every few minutes!

I honestly would have done the same, if it was a work colleague with whom I'd just spent a pleasant evening & had no reason to expect them to behave inappropriately.

Also, we don't know how he phrased the original request - if it was 'can I come & borrow your token?' not 'what's the internet code?' then it sets up an entirely different expectation to her suggesting the visit off her own bat.

The one thing we do know is that the man in question told the woman that actually, he hadn't come for the code. So unless he'd had a fleeting urge to play Angry Birds & it had as quickly passed - he lied to her.