to think that "sexual harassment" is a bit strong to describe this event?

[BartiiMus]

At a training session with work. 3 days, 2 nights on-site.

Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Last night at a party my colleague told us that there'd been "sexual harassment" during the training this summer but refused to say who had been involved. After a bit of coaxing and lots of clues from him we worked out who the man had been, and our colleague confirmed it.

I know him, I've worked with him before and he's a nice bloke. I'm not saying he didn't do this but he tried it on, was refused and left. Is that really "sexual harassment"?

To be honest, I'm a bit pissed off with the gossip colleague who told us all because it's a bit of a non-event (man tries to pull woman, woman refuses, man leaves) but he's usually highly emotive language like "sexual harassment" to describe it. She's not even reporting it. The man isn't her boss or anything and they don't work together.

I know I probably don't have all the story but I do know the gossip well and he does love to exagerate and I don't think it's very fair to man A to have people slinging mud at him like this.

So, deep breath AIBU?

But he did. It is unfair to put "what if" onto that.

Supposing she HAD invited him to her room, because she also thought there was a connection, and had allowed him to kiss her.. but didnt want it to go any further than that.

Nobody can know what might happen in "that kind of situation".

but he DID back off Dowagers

MySpanielHell

"But why would any court in the land be dealing with this? It would be a complaint of sexual harassment that would be dealt with using an informal procedure at work."

Because if he lost his job for this I would hope that he would sue the company.

DowagersHump

"But what if he hadn't backed off squeakytoy"

he did back off so your question is irrelevent

I'm also wondering if those offended by the man are very young?

In my day, I'm just 41 , it would have been a normal-ish route to meeting a woman.

It was clumsy, but the whole episode was imo. If she had given the info over the phone, he would have had to try his luck another time.The woman should have stopped to think about the implications of inviting him in. I am not saying it would have been alright if she had been sexually molested however. It would never have been her fault.

I think women need to continue to wise up.

and I worry for my sons.

So fucking pleased I do most of my socialising in places where the social standard is one of very explicit communication about intentions. I forget people outside of my wider friendship groups think there's something weird about asking 'May I kiss you?' [which would be pretty standard communication within these groups between people who weren't already partners]

I think he knew he'd have to go to her room - why else call and make it up?

And no I'm not very young but I think the way he acted was unprofessional. I work away a lot and this has never happened to me but according to some of you this is normal behaviour so should I not be friendly to any male colleagues so they don't get the wrong idea and put me in this situation?

A little white lie to create an oportunity is not ok in this situation - are you seriously going to educate your sons that its ok to lie to get into someones room so you can try it on?

I have to say I don't know, nor have I ever heard anyone, irl or in a film, that has asked if they could kiss someone.

Feminine, I am 42, so you may have a very good point there.

Independent, I would probably cringe if someone said to me "may I kiss you". I am old enough and experienced enough to read the signs without someone having to spell it out. If they had to ask, it is pretty fair to assume I wouldnt want them to.

After this im thinking ill educate my sons to just not bother trying to get a partner tbh

auntie obviously I won't be educating my sons to lie ...to try it on.

I do think he was unprofessional, so was she.

Woman need to look out for themselves. I'd never invite a man in to my room that time of night, he would have to wait.

You know, many successful relationships have been started on a little white lie.

Its not a crime.

Man tries his luck , woman says get lost -end of.

babybarrister

"Not read all of this but surely an issue is whether he was higher up food chain to her - could she have felt in any way obliged to accept his advance?"

She didn't accept his advance, she said no and he left.

BBJ, why would he have lost his job? That is a very extreme reaction. There are very few things at work that go straight from a faultless record to loss of a job. There are many things that can be done to sort out the situation before it gets to that point.

And BTW Squeakytoy and feminine, I'm 39. Other people have different ideas about what they do and do want sexually than you do. I don't like pushiness in potential sexual partners and expect to take the lead. Because different people want different things. What you do and do find sexy is different from what somebody else will and will not find sexy.

And it has never been answered on this thread by the people saying she shouldn't have done X/ it is obviously leading to a situation of sex/romance, you don't spend time in rooms alone with men/ sending out signals etc, how do you go about making friends with men? Because all the things that she supposedly shouldn't have done are normal parts of forming friendships.

Myspanielhell

every place that I have worked sexual harrassment of colleagues is (quite rightly) gross misconduct and the person would suspended, investigated then sacked.

I'm 47 and I'm able to recognise a situation where a man is behaving in an inappropriate way towards a female colleague.

This would be viewed quite dimly by my firm if the woman had reported him but he wouldn't lose his job over it. He would have to go on additional diversity training though.

BBJ, well then your workplace is not following EOC guidelines, which are quite clear about the need to deal with many sexual harassment cases through informal means. Your workplace needs to get somebody in to train personnel and management, because people will be put off making complaints if the response is so extreme.

MySpanielHell

they are guidelines not laws.

"because people will be put off making complaints if the response is so extreme."

Really, I would have thought that a genuine victim of harassment or assualt would be quite pleased to see the person infringing on their rights leaving the workplace.

I am so glad never to have worked for companies where everyone is so politically correct that you would be to scared to even hold a door open for a member of the opposite sex, never mind flirt with a colleague.

I have worked for plenty of companies where there have been very clear incidents that warranted some sort of bollocking including dismissal, but thankfully never in a place that spends its days following "diversity training", and other PC claptrap...

Squeakytoy, again, if you read the EOC document they mention the door holding thing as an example of myths about sex discrimination spread by the media.

And a company that didn't allow complainants to request an informal route, with outcomes as wildly PC as 1. telling the person not to do it again or b. telling the person they had to abide by company policy would be breaking the law. Employers have to have informal routes available. They can't make every case go straight to suspension/dismissal.

Why on earth is it assumed that the default position is that the woman should have to reject a man's sexual advances ? Should the default position not be for the man to determine whether his advances would be welcomed ?

I had more men than hot dinners try it on...I have, many times told them to get lost ..or not

In all of those situations I was in control, I can't blame a man for trying can I?

if a man asked to come to my room at night, I'd have said no.

Its not difficult.

Women need to use common sense.

He was silly, and buggered off.

Isnt it more normal for there to be a bit of testing out and edging forward from both sides, with people checking out each others advances?

blistory how on earth can a man find out if a woman wants him these days?

Do you send a mail first, to check if its alright?

Men will always try it on, its not weird, unless they refuse to take no for an answer.

This guy took the hint and left...clumsy behaviour but not sexual assault.