to think that "sexual harassment" is a bit strong to describe this event?

[BartiiMus]

At a training session with work. 3 days, 2 nights on-site.

Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Last night at a party my colleague told us that there'd been "sexual harassment" during the training this summer but refused to say who had been involved. After a bit of coaxing and lots of clues from him we worked out who the man had been, and our colleague confirmed it.

I know him, I've worked with him before and he's a nice bloke. I'm not saying he didn't do this but he tried it on, was refused and left. Is that really "sexual harassment"?

To be honest, I'm a bit pissed off with the gossip colleague who told us all because it's a bit of a non-event (man tries to pull woman, woman refuses, man leaves) but he's usually highly emotive language like "sexual harassment" to describe it. She's not even reporting it. The man isn't her boss or anything and they don't work together.

I know I probably don't have all the story but I do know the gossip well and he does love to exagerate and I don't think it's very fair to man A to have people slinging mud at him like this.

So, deep breath AIBU?

MmeLindor Fri 14-Sep-12 14:39:20
But you don't go from 'could you give Colin from accounts a quick ring to let him know that your customer cancelled the order' to having a drink with the team after a training session to SNOG.

Depends on how your joint feelings develop. I understand some women quite like physical attraction, and I wouldn't presume to judge someone who wanted to move to sex quickly - if both people wanted it.

I'd still reckon a kiss is the first physical intimacy, often.

And as is said about other things, consent need not be verbal, but will be obvious. My example is leaning in for a kiss.

I am not arguing that a kiss is the first physical intimacy, but that one should first ensure that the other person would welcome a kiss.

It has been a long time since I was in the market for a first kiss, but I do recall that they were preceded with a bit of flirting, eye contact etc.

Of course it happens in other ways, but if a person goes for a lunge/kiss with no 'intro' then he/she should not be surprised to find themselves looking at a sexual harassement charge.

In this case, the woman in question does not seem to have given any sign that she was attracted to the colleague.

In this case, the woman in question does not seem to have given any sign that she was attracted to the colleague.

Really?
If I invited a man to my hotel bedroom after midnight, I would consider that a pretty clear indication that I was interested.

MmeLindor we're agreeing violently, then. Good

So the situation appears to be that there is no basis for a charge of sexual harassement because the definition in criminal law is a course of conduct i.e. more than a single act.

Based, however on the employment tribunal case kindly quoted above by geegee888 the man's action might form grounds for civil action by an employer against an employee.

Is this a fair summary so far?

TheEnthusiasticTroll "Is he married or have a partner OP? Im not saying married men behave like this as a rule or norm, but it just seems odd he wanted to get her in her room and intiate intimacy rather than engage in a better way of letting her know he was interested in her. seems he was just interested in a quick no strings shag rather than responding to any true conection he may have said he felt. "

Well yes, its pretty obvious that was his game. He's using his work situation to try and get women alone. I'd be surprised if he wasn't attached. Because if he was attracted to her, he would ask her out on some kind of date the next day, not lie to get into her room in a hotel.

Pendeen I hadn't realised you were talking about criminal charges of sexual assault. I thought you were only meaning a civil case ie a charge of gross misconduct, should she report him to her employers. Which is what he would be up against if she did. He is a very lucky man if she doesn't, but tbh I hope she does, because I suspect this type does it more than once and then there would be a record of it.

I'm a little bit horrified at the mumsnetters who can't distinguish a nice man flirting with a woman from a lying creep trying to get into a woman's hotel room after midnight.

'If I invited a man to my hotel bedroom after midnight, I would consider that a pretty clear indication that I was interested.'

You're not the woman in question though, or are you?

shit I once invited a friends Dh into my room after midnight to return DFs hair straighteners are you saying I was letting him know I was intersted MySpanielHell?

she laughed it off and said it was nothing then decided it was sexual harassment? she sounds like a charmer do you know my husband (before we got together) once told me (while he was completely out of his tree by the way) that i was the most gorgeous woman on the planet etc etc and kissed me i hadn't encouraged him he just started chatting to me and i found the whole situation hilarious! no harm done
if i was the woman i would have objected if he had been pushy but even she said he left after finding out he had the wrong end of the stick people make mistakes all the time doesn't make it actionable in a court of law makes it petty meandering if hr even considers it worth attention to be honest

No, Enthusiastic, I most certainly am not! I would assume you were letting him in to return the hair straighteners, and that the woman with the code let the colleague in for the code, and that people inviting members of the opposite sex in for a chat are inviting them in for a chat.

Because I don't believe in all this mind reading business, and I was off sick from school on the day when they explained that when people tell you something they are actually giving you some kind of secret illuminati message that everybody knows about.

sorry I miss read your post I see now you where responding to another poster who had stated that. i appologise .

It is alright. I mostly responded because I wanted to call you Enthusiastic.

As nobody on here (other than the OP) knows this woman, I fail to understand all those painting a picture of some vulnerable woman, risking her safety by allowing a man into her hotel room... and none of us know what sort of conversation, or looks, had gone on prior to this..

and unless the "workplace" was at the bar, then these people were not actually in the "workplace", they were on a course, and we all know how many affairs happen on courses, as the relationship page is littered with threads on that subject.. both male and females having the affairs or ONS..

There is actually no relevance or indication in mentioning assault or rape, he didnt do either or attempt either. Trying to kiss someone is not assault. Forcing a kiss on someone who doesnt want it, most definately is, but nobody has said he forced it.

Squeakytoy I thought it was general knowledge, as gleaned from reading newspapers, inhouse training and guidance etc, work codes of practice, and so on that the "workplace" is extended to cover places outwith the traditional office work environment when those places are used primarily for work purposes. In fact I think you will also find that work related socials are also covered loosely by sex discrimination and other laws against discrimination in the workplace.

You're certainly on the right track with the work based affair I think though - his idiocy was to assume that everyone he approached, however clumsily, would be up for it or not be offended.

Thankfully the days where women in the workplace had to pretend to be flattered by some old goat flirting with them are gone. Its not the 1970s any more.

This is at least a piece of third generation hearsay with much of the backstory missing.

I am amazed that some posters are taking the time to find/make up so much "evidence"

What they do in their own time after a course has finished is their own business. I have worked away plenty before I was married. The job I did entailed overnight stays in various hotels, with colleagues most nights of the week all over the UK. Plenty of banter, innuendo, and actual kissing/sex went on between lots of people. Nobody once cried "sexual harassment". If one of my colleagues tried to kiss me, and I hadnt been interested, I would say "no thanks". End of story.

I may have laughed with one of my other colleagues about it the next day too.. not out of nervousness, just because thats the sort of relationship we all had at that company.

Four of us all shared a house as well, which we rented privately, so again, nothing to do with the "workplace" either.

I'm a little bit horrified at the mumsnetters who can't distinguish a nice man flirting with a woman from a lying creep trying to get into a woman's hotel room after midnight.

Come off it! Read the OP. He didn't 'try to get in'. She INVITED him in.

..because he lied to her about needing a password

Surely if it was normal flirty, he would have rung and asked whether she fancied a coffee, or a brandy or something. But he didn't. He lied. Then he tried to kiss her.

Well this is all third hand of course, but according to the OP he originally asked for the password over the phone. So he had no expectation of leaving his own room.

It was only after he was invited to her room that he thought he was in with a chance and tried it on. When he realised that he was wrong he left.

They both made mistakes and hopefully will both have learned something from it.

*Can you tell us which piece of legislation you used to 'fire' the person as the opinion seems to be that it is not harassement in the legal sense because this was a single act.

Genuine question because that's the usual legal definition?*

Why would I need the legal definition? It was a disciplinary meeting for gross misconduct not a court of law?

exactly Back2Two, and as the woman was neither up for it, or offended, then no harm has been done either..

Sallyingforth

That is my point, he rang, she said come over, he tried it on, she said no, he left.

given the very sketchy details how anyone can say its harrassment is beyond me.

"Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room."

so he is there under false pretences... that's the clincher, surely?